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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello again, previously I had written about an ABS/brake problem I had following a transmission replace. (I'm hoping someone now might have some idea of what is happening). Anyhow, the transmission tech ran an all systems scan on my van, and the printout showed fault codes having to do with the abs system.

They are 10- left front sensor circuit failure, 11- left front speed sensor signal failure, 20- Pump circuit failure.

The brakes would work normally, but the abs light would sometimes come on and go off even before the tranny job. However, after the transmission replace, the abs light stayed on and about 2 months later, I began to experience irregular braking back in March, the pedal would rattle and sometimes drop down just before dead bottom.

Anyway I replaced the left front wheel sensor and the braking went back to normal. However, the abs light stayed on. Then about 2 weeks ago in April, the red brake light has come on and does not go out. I've checked fuses but found nothing blown.

I've yet to check the brake pedal switch and the parking brake switch, but I'm reluctant to believe either of these two switches can go bad, just like that. I had also tried disconnecting the battery, when I replaced the abs sensor, to see if light would go out, but it did not. Now, I considering, if a code meter, like an innova 600p or Foxcon needed to turn off these two lights. I've drawn a blank. Any help is appreciated.
 

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2007 T&C Touring 230k mi
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Get the new/current ABS codes scanned at an auto parts store, if it’s just the pump circuit code as before, check the blue connector wiring that’s underneath the fusebox for any loose/corroded wires. Give each wire a wiggle to be sure, don’t just check visually.

Remove battery and press down on tab on drivers side of fusebox to rotate it and be able to access the connectors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Get the new/current ABS codes scanned at an auto parts store, if it’s just the pump circuit code as before, check the blue connector wiring that’s underneath the fusebox for any loose/corroded wires. Give each wire a wiggle to be sure, don’t just check visually.

Remove battery and press down on tab on drivers side of fusebox to rotate it and be able to access the connectors.
Thanks for your input. Can I ask, what Tab do I press down on, at drivers side fuse box; where is it located?, and does it rotate? Thx.
 

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Thanks for your input. Can I ask, what Tab do I press down on, at drivers side fuse box; where is it located?, and does it rotate? Thx.
The tab is between the driver’s fender and the box itself, it just holds that side of the fuse box in place. It will then allow the box to pivot on its side and rotate in the direction where the battery was
 

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Thank you for your input. Can you tell me, what are the CABs..?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yes thanks, I re-anylized your message, and found the tab, it actually allows the fuse box to Flip towards the left, revealing the wiring harness/connectors. I did a visual inspection and tugged on the wires and connectors, nothing was loose, old or corroded. I also wiggled the connector that leads out from the master cylinder, assuming it's the fluid sensor,, but after everything was put back, turned engine but lights were still on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The tab is between the driver’s fender and the box itself, it just holds that side of the fuse box in place. It will then allow the box to pivot on its side and rotate in the direction where the battery was
Yes thanks, I re-anylized your message, and found the tab, it actually allows the fuse box to Flip towards the left, revealing the wiring harness/connectors. I did a visual inspection and tugged on the wires and connectors, nothing was loose, old or corroded. I also wiggled the connector that leads out from the master cylinder, assuming it's the fluid sensor,, but after everything was put back, turned engine but lights were still on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yes thanks, I re-anylized your message, and found the tab, it actually allows the fuse box to Flip towards the left, revealing the wiring harness/connectors. I did a visual inspection and tugged on the wires and connectors, nothing was loose, old or corroded. I also wiggled the connector that leads out from the master cylinder, assuming it's the fluid sensor,, but after everything was put back, turned engine but lights were still on.
I was considering buying a codes meter, for I was planning on getting one eventually, the Innova 6100p, which aside from check engine ABS codes,, it also diagnoses the transmission. However, I am wondering if even these meters can turn off the abs light like it does the check-engine or oil lights. Does anyone have experience using this or other capable meter?
 

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2005 Dodge Grand Caravan 2013 Chrysler T & C and a few more
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I have two Innova Diagnostic Tools. The older Equus 3150's manual states it reads ABS Codes on a 2005 Dodge G Caravan. It definitely does not! I contacted Tech Support at Innova who said they were working on an update and would let me know. I'm still waiting after 5 years! It reads ABS codes on a Chev Impala ok.
My newer Innova is a 3100 j+ which does read the ABS codes on the 2005 GC. It was on sale at Canadian Tire at a give away price.
Bear in mind it will erase the ABS codes but the van will still detect an ABS malfunction and illuminate the amber warning light almost immediately if the fault is not rectified.

Rusty Oldford.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have two Innova Diagnostic Tools. The older Equus 3150's manual states it reads ABS Codes on a 2005 Dodge G Caravan. It definitely does not! I contacted Tech Support at Innova who said they were working on an update and would let me know. I'm still waiting after 5 years! It reads ABS codes on a Chev Impala ok.
My newer Innova is a 3100 j+ which does read the ABS codes on the 2005 GC. It was on sale at Canadian Tire at a give away price.
Bear in mind it will erase the ABS codes but the van will still detect an ABS malfunction and illuminate the amber warning light almost immediately if the fault is not rectified.

Rusty Oldford.
Thank you for that Rusty. My concern now is, that my van inspection expires end of May, and although here in NY, they are mainly concerned if the Check-engine light is lit. I just don't want the brake and abs lights to be lit by the time inspection is needed. I did replace the L/F wheel sensor, which once I did, braking went back to normal. But the lights are still on. I'm wondering if it has something to do, with needing a code meter to turn them off. The innova 6100p will run me $139.99 on Amazon. But I'd hate to buy it and it Not turn them lights out as a result of the repair acknowledgement, you know. I'd hate to scheme, but I may have to remove the dash shield and put flat black tape over them two lights, to get past inspection man..lol.
 

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Hi M J, My winter beater's red brake and amber ABS warnings are remaining on even with erasing the codes. The ABS has been on for a long time on its own and the sensor codes were erasable but the amber light would come on after driving down the driveway. The red warning light is new since a month ago and I've checked the low brake fluid and parking brake switch circuits which leads me to believe the problem is with the CAB's electronics etc. Now that it's past winter, I will have time to investigate over the summer when I'm driving the T&C and Buick.
We have been fortunate in Ontario. Inspections and even licensing fees have been abolished allowing us to keep driving our old minivans. Does your inspection man actually scan the OBD or is it just a visual instrument cluster check for warning lights? My 2005 GC still looks good except for the flaking clearcoat......no dog leg rust holes thanks to annual chain saw oil protection every summer. The Buick is a 2007 and also rust free thanks to underoiling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi M J, My winter beater's red brake and amber ABS warnings are remaining on even with erasing the codes. The ABS has been on for a long time on its own and the sensor codes were erasable but the amber light would come on after driving down the driveway. The red warning light is new since a month ago and I've checked the low brake fluid and parking brake switch circuits which leads me to believe the problem is with the CAB's electronics etc. Now that it's past winter, I will have time to investigate over the summer when I'm driving the T&C and Buick.
We have been fortunate in Ontario. Inspections and even licensing fees have been abolished allowing us to keep driving our old minivans. Does your inspection man actually scan the OBD or is it just a visual instrument cluster check for warning lights? My 2005 GC still looks good except for the flaking clearcoat......no dog leg rust holes thanks to annual chain saw oil protection every summer. The Buick is a 2007 and also rust free thanks to underoiling.
Wow, Interesting scenario Rusty.
So you're saying, even if I purchase a scan tool, (which I did a few hors ago, Yikes!) to erase those light codes, them lights are coming back on?? Dang! Unfortunately down here in NYS (of whats left of the USA), vehicle inspections are required by Law. However, the inspection man I went to last yr, may or may not have plugged o the OBD port, I know past ones have. But, the Only light they tell me Cannot be lit, is the check-engine light. Some times they'll pull a wheel from front or rear to inspect brakes and overall a visual under carriage look. but thats all. However, having two of the 2nd most alarming lights on, in the dash, may bring on a "Red Alert, shields up, brace for impact" resulting in a No-Pass inspection. If this meter, which arrives tomorrow, erases those lights Permanently, I'm fine. But then they come back on, I'll feel I've wasted $137.00. If that happens, I will run a code test on the abs or brakes system, to see what comes up. Overall or initially, I was planning on replacing the entire abs pump with ECU module. I don't know if this has anything to do with what you call the CAB's. If so, I personally feel it should be "ABC" for antilock brake controller, lol. I will inform you of the outcome, of my findings. Thanks.
 

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Please, I don't want to be master of the obvious, but did you check the brake fluid level?

There is a sort of brake fluid level gauge and it should alert you with the red BRAKE light if the fluid goes low. [I think]
The ABS may also illuminate as it won't work properly is the fluid is empty either.

Beware getting out the parts cannon, it gets real expensive real fast. Diagnose and then replace parts, always.

*Search TPM or TIPM faults and repairs, watch YouTube videos [eric the car guy] had some good info aboout tthe TIPM (aka The Fuse Box) [sorry, I was speaking Canadian for a moment, didn't see your stars and bars]
*Flipping that thing over after releasing the tab and looking, wiggle wires, that is not what you should do.
All of the wiring starts and stops at that TIPM. Release the levers and pull those connectors off and look for blue/green corrosion OR burnt OR loose wiring. The connectors only go back on one way, try to NOT move them around, as they are organized in such a way that they fit back underneath. [Take pictures before for reference is always smart]
Many times just the operation of removing the connector and reinstalling it may 'refresh' the many electrical contacts in a connector.

You may have another wheel speed sensor gone bad. Diagnose and THEN replace. Maybe one of the new ones went bad. Mopar parts are pretty reliable, some of the Amazon wheel sensors may be questionable. I usually get what I paid for.

Please, I took a bit of time sharing my experience tonight. Please return and let us know what you end up finding or what you end up doing, even if you trade her in and buy a Tesla. Don't be ashamed if you make a mistake, tell us so the next guy doesn't make the same mistakes. So I don't continue to make the same recommendations...
Even if you end up taking it to a shop, tell us how they fixed it and what parts were required.

Good Luck, I look forward to hearing more about your red BRAKE and amber ABS lights being repaired.
Cheers!
 
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2009 Dodge Grand Caravan SXT (3.8); 2003 Dodge Grand Caravan eL (3.8)
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..*Search TPM or TIPM faults and repairs, watch YouTube videos [eric the car guy] had some good info aboout tthe TIPM (aka The Fuse Box)...
In the 4th generation vans it is an IPM.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Please, I don't want to be master of the obvious, but did you check the brake fluid level?

There is a sort of brake fluid level gauge and it should alert you with the red BRAKE light if the fluid goes low. [I think]
The ABS may also illuminate as it won't work properly is the fluid is empty either.

Beware getting out the parts cannon, it gets real expensive real fast. Diagnose and then replace parts, always.

*Search TPM or TIPM faults and repairs, watch YouTube videos [eric the car guy] had some good info aboout tthe TIPM (aka The Fuse Box) [sorry, I was speaking Canadian for a moment, didn't see your stars and bars]
*Flipping that thing over after releasing the tab and looking, wiggle wires, that is not what you should do.
All of the wiring starts and stops at that TIPM. Release the levers and pull those connectors off and look for blue/green corrosion OR burnt OR loose wiring. The connectors only go back on one way, try to NOT move them around, as they are organized in such a way that they fit back underneath. [Take pictures before for reference is always smart]
Many times just the operation of removing the connector and reinstalling it may 'refresh' the many electrical contacts in a connector.

You may have another wheel speed sensor gone bad. Diagnose and THEN replace. Maybe one of the new ones went bad. Mopar parts are pretty reliable, some of the Amazon wheel sensors may be questionable. I usually get what I paid for.

Please, I took a bit of time sharing my experience tonight. Please return and let us know what you end up finding or what you end up doing, even if you trade her in and buy a Tesla. Don't be ashamed if you make a mistake, tell us so the next guy doesn't make the same mistakes. So I don't continue to make the same recommendations...
Even if you end up taking it to a shop, tell us how they fixed it and what parts were required.

Good Luck, I look forward to hearing more about your red BRAKE and amber ABS lights being repaired.
Cheers!
Please, I don't want to be master of the obvious, but did you check the brake fluid level?

There is a sort of brake fluid level gauge and it should alert you with the red BRAKE light if the fluid goes low. [I think]
The ABS may also illuminate as it won't work properly is the fluid is empty either.

Beware getting out the parts cannon, it gets real expensive real fast. Diagnose and then replace parts, always.

*Search TPM or TIPM faults and repairs, watch YouTube videos [eric the car guy] had some good info aboout tthe TIPM (aka The Fuse Box) [sorry, I was speaking Canadian for a moment, didn't see your stars and bars]
*Flipping that thing over after releasing the tab and looking, wiggle wires, that is not what you should do.
All of the wiring starts and stops at that TIPM. Release the levers and pull those connectors off and look for blue/green corrosion OR burnt OR loose wiring. The connectors only go back on one way, try to NOT move them around, as they are organized in such a way that they fit back underneath. [Take pictures before for reference is always smart]
Many times just the operation of removing the connector and reinstalling it may 'refresh' the many electrical contacts in a connector.

You may have another wheel speed sensor gone bad. Diagnose and THEN replace. Maybe one of the new ones went bad. Mopar parts are pretty reliable, some of the Amazon wheel sensors may be questionable. I usually get what I paid for.

Please, I took a bit of time sharing my experience tonight. Please return and let us know what you end up finding or what you end up doing, even if you trade her in and buy a Tesla. Don't be ashamed if you make a mistake, tell us so the next guy doesn't make the same mistakes. So I don't continue to make the same recommendations...
Even if you end up taking it to a shop, tell us how they fixed it and what parts were required.

Good Luck, I look forward to hearing more about your red BRAKE and amber ABS lights being repaired.
Cheers!
Thank you FabricGator, yes, the master cylinder is filled to normal level. The part about "pulling out or temporarily disconnecting a connector" sounds like a viable option. That, I can do. And I Always take photos before anything.

When I did flip fuse box over and inspected underneath, I did not see (that green rust corrosion I've seen in some wires), and all wires although dusty,, were solid and no signs of the abominable snowman's finger prints.. However, I find it a bit difficult for trouble to just start in that area, if noone has been tinkering there. But, I guess anything is possible.
So, to be cooperative, I will be turning backto these posts as I usually do, to inform my findings and repairs. Thanks again.
 

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So you're saying, even if I purchase a scan tool, (which I did a few hors ago, Yikes!) to erase those light codes, them lights are coming back on?? Dang!
Yep. I have attached a page from the factory chassis diagnostic manual that discusses the function of the ABS warning lamp. Specifically it states:

The ABS Warning Indicator will remain lit during
every key cycle until a circuit or component fault is
repaired and the CAB no longer detects the fault.
After repair of a sensor signal fault or a pump motor
fault, the CAB must sense all four wheels at 25
km/h (15 mph) before it will extinguish the ABS and
TRAC OFF Indicators.


Bottom line: as long as a problem is still detected by the CAB the lamp will stay on. Conversely, if the problem is no longer detected the lamp will go out on its own. I know this for a fact from experience with my own van. We frequently drive some very dusty gravel/dirt roads in the Everglades. Often the ABS light will come on while we are out there. I'm guessing the dust somehow interferes with the operation of one or more of the wheel speed sensors. The light always turns off on its own as it did again this past weekend. I don't worry about it and I don't even know what trouble code is.

As far as the red brake warning lamp the same page of the manual states:

The red BRAKE warning indicator is also located
in the instrument cluster. It can be activated in
several ways. Application of the parking brake or a
low fluid signal from the fluid level switch located in
the master cylinder reservoir will cause the indicator
to come on.


This statement is somewhat ambiguous as it says the lamp is "activated in several ways" and explains two of those ways. It doesn't say those are the only ways though it kinda implies that.

Anyway, you've got the brake fluid level sensor on the side of the master cylinder and the parking brake switch that can turn on the red brake warning light. Both switches are normally open and work by grounding the circuit to indicate a problem. You should be able to disconnect either one to see whether there is a problem with that particular switch. If the light turns off when disconnected, well, there's your problem.

I took a look at the wiring diagrams to see how both of these inputs interact with the light in the cluster. The parking brake switch is directly wired to the cluster. The brake fluid level sensor is a direct input to the front control module (that small module on the front of the IPM) where the message is presumably sent to the cluster via the PCI data bus.

To summarize, the bad news is that your new scan tool will not turn off any lights as long as the CAB sees a problem. The good news is that you will probably be able to use your new scan tool to help diagnose why your ABS light is coming on.

Font Material property Paper Screenshot Publication
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yep. I have attached a page from the factory chassis diagnostic manual that discusses the function of the ABS warning lamp. Specifically it states:

The ABS Warning Indicator will remain lit during
every key cycle until a circuit or component fault is
repaired and the CAB no longer detects the fault.
After repair of a sensor signal fault or a pump motor
fault, the CAB must sense all four wheels at 25
km/h (15 mph) before it will extinguish the ABS and
TRAC OFF Indicators.


Bottom line: as long as a problem is still detected by the CAB the lamp will stay on. Conversely, if the problem is no longer detected the lamp will go out on its own. I know this for a fact from experience with my own van. We frequently drive some very dusty gravel/dirt roads in the Everglades. Often the ABS light will come on while we are out there. I'm guessing the dust somehow interferes with the operation of one or more of the wheel speed sensors. The light always turns off on its own as it did again this past weekend. I don't worry about it and I don't even know what trouble code is.

As far as the red brake warning lamp the same page of the manual states:

The red BRAKE warning indicator is also located
in the instrument cluster. It can be activated in
several ways. Application of the parking brake or a
low fluid signal from the fluid level switch located in
the master cylinder reservoir will cause the indicator
to come on.


This statement is somewhat ambiguous as it says the lamp is "activated in several ways" and explains two of those ways. It doesn't say those are the only ways though it kinda implies that.

Anyway, you've got the brake fluid level sensor on the side of the master cylinder and the parking brake switch that can turn on the red brake warning light. Both switches are normally open and work by grounding the circuit to indicate a problem. You should be able to disconnect either one to see whether there is a problem with that particular switch. If the light turns off when disconnected, well, there's your problem.

I took a look at the wiring diagrams to see how both of these inputs interact with the light in the cluster. The parking brake switch is directly wired to the cluster. The brake fluid level sensor is a direct input to the front control module (that small module on the front of the IPM) where the message is presumably sent to the cluster via the PCI data bus.

To summarize, the bad news is that your new scan tool will not turn off any lights as long as the CAB sees a problem. The good news is that you will probably be able to use your new scan tool to help diagnose why your ABS light is coming on.

View attachment 65930
Well Rusty, and whoever is following this thread,, Today 4/26/22, I connected the Innova 6100p scanner to my van, and it did its thing.
Now originally I had explained that months ago I had experienced some abnormal pulsating at the brake pedal, and that at some point, the pedal sank almost to the floor. Checking back on the printout scanner when transmission was to be replaced, the fault codes mentioned were 10,11 & 20. Left front sensor circuit failure, left front speed sensor circuit failure, and pump circuit failure.

Today, the scanner indicated to go buy a New Van! 😆 🤣.. (kidding, had to throw that in). It came with all wheel sensors signal N/A, and in addition, ECU internal failure, hydraulic pump circuit failure, valve power feed failure!

So pretty much, I have to replace the entire abs pump with module, unless there's something extra outside that ABS pump. So there ya have it.
 

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Here may be something relevant for you John:


Too bad the OP didn't return and let us know how it all turned out.... lol
 
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