The Chrysler Minivan Fan Club Forums banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello again, previously I had written about an ABS/brake problem I had following a transmission replace. (I'm hoping someone now might have some idea of what is happening). Anyhow, the transmission tech ran an all systems scan on my van, and the printout showed fault codes having to do with the abs system.

They are 10- left front sensor circuit failure, 11- left front speed sensor signal failure, 20- Pump circuit failure.

The brakes would work normally, but the abs light would sometimes come on and go off even before the tranny job. However, after the transmission replace, the abs light stayed on and about 2 months later, I began to experience irregular braking back in March, the pedal would rattle and sometimes drop down just before dead bottom.

Anyway I replaced the left front wheel sensor and the braking went back to normal. However, the abs light stayed on. Then about 2 weeks ago in April, the red brake light has come on and does not go out. I've checked fuses but found nothing blown.

I've yet to check the brake pedal switch and the parking brake switch, but I'm reluctant to believe either of these two switches can go bad, just like that. I had also tried disconnecting the battery, when I replaced the abs sensor, to see if light would go out, but it did not. Now, I considering, if a code meter, like an innova 600p or Foxcon needed to turn off these two lights. I've drawn a blank. Any help is appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Get the new/current ABS codes scanned at an auto parts store, if it’s just the pump circuit code as before, check the blue connector wiring that’s underneath the fusebox for any loose/corroded wires. Give each wire a wiggle to be sure, don’t just check visually.

Remove battery and press down on tab on drivers side of fusebox to rotate it and be able to access the connectors.
Thanks for your input. Can I ask, what Tab do I press down on, at drivers side fuse box; where is it located?, and does it rotate? Thx.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yes thanks, I re-anylized your message, and found the tab, it actually allows the fuse box to Flip towards the left, revealing the wiring harness/connectors. I did a visual inspection and tugged on the wires and connectors, nothing was loose, old or corroded. I also wiggled the connector that leads out from the master cylinder, assuming it's the fluid sensor,, but after everything was put back, turned engine but lights were still on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The tab is between the driver’s fender and the box itself, it just holds that side of the fuse box in place. It will then allow the box to pivot on its side and rotate in the direction where the battery was
Yes thanks, I re-anylized your message, and found the tab, it actually allows the fuse box to Flip towards the left, revealing the wiring harness/connectors. I did a visual inspection and tugged on the wires and connectors, nothing was loose, old or corroded. I also wiggled the connector that leads out from the master cylinder, assuming it's the fluid sensor,, but after everything was put back, turned engine but lights were still on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yes thanks, I re-anylized your message, and found the tab, it actually allows the fuse box to Flip towards the left, revealing the wiring harness/connectors. I did a visual inspection and tugged on the wires and connectors, nothing was loose, old or corroded. I also wiggled the connector that leads out from the master cylinder, assuming it's the fluid sensor,, but after everything was put back, turned engine but lights were still on.
I was considering buying a codes meter, for I was planning on getting one eventually, the Innova 6100p, which aside from check engine ABS codes,, it also diagnoses the transmission. However, I am wondering if even these meters can turn off the abs light like it does the check-engine or oil lights. Does anyone have experience using this or other capable meter?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have two Innova Diagnostic Tools. The older Equus 3150's manual states it reads ABS Codes on a 2005 Dodge G Caravan. It definitely does not! I contacted Tech Support at Innova who said they were working on an update and would let me know. I'm still waiting after 5 years! It reads ABS codes on a Chev Impala ok.
My newer Innova is a 3100 j+ which does read the ABS codes on the 2005 GC. It was on sale at Canadian Tire at a give away price.
Bear in mind it will erase the ABS codes but the van will still detect an ABS malfunction and illuminate the amber warning light almost immediately if the fault is not rectified.

Rusty Oldford.
Thank you for that Rusty. My concern now is, that my van inspection expires end of May, and although here in NY, they are mainly concerned if the Check-engine light is lit. I just don't want the brake and abs lights to be lit by the time inspection is needed. I did replace the L/F wheel sensor, which once I did, braking went back to normal. But the lights are still on. I'm wondering if it has something to do, with needing a code meter to turn them off. The innova 6100p will run me $139.99 on Amazon. But I'd hate to buy it and it Not turn them lights out as a result of the repair acknowledgement, you know. I'd hate to scheme, but I may have to remove the dash shield and put flat black tape over them two lights, to get past inspection man..lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi M J, My winter beater's red brake and amber ABS warnings are remaining on even with erasing the codes. The ABS has been on for a long time on its own and the sensor codes were erasable but the amber light would come on after driving down the driveway. The red warning light is new since a month ago and I've checked the low brake fluid and parking brake switch circuits which leads me to believe the problem is with the CAB's electronics etc. Now that it's past winter, I will have time to investigate over the summer when I'm driving the T&C and Buick.
We have been fortunate in Ontario. Inspections and even licensing fees have been abolished allowing us to keep driving our old minivans. Does your inspection man actually scan the OBD or is it just a visual instrument cluster check for warning lights? My 2005 GC still looks good except for the flaking clearcoat......no dog leg rust holes thanks to annual chain saw oil protection every summer. The Buick is a 2007 and also rust free thanks to underoiling.
Wow, Interesting scenario Rusty.
So you're saying, even if I purchase a scan tool, (which I did a few hors ago, Yikes!) to erase those light codes, them lights are coming back on?? Dang! Unfortunately down here in NYS (of whats left of the USA), vehicle inspections are required by Law. However, the inspection man I went to last yr, may or may not have plugged o the OBD port, I know past ones have. But, the Only light they tell me Cannot be lit, is the check-engine light. Some times they'll pull a wheel from front or rear to inspect brakes and overall a visual under carriage look. but thats all. However, having two of the 2nd most alarming lights on, in the dash, may bring on a "Red Alert, shields up, brace for impact" resulting in a No-Pass inspection. If this meter, which arrives tomorrow, erases those lights Permanently, I'm fine. But then they come back on, I'll feel I've wasted $137.00. If that happens, I will run a code test on the abs or brakes system, to see what comes up. Overall or initially, I was planning on replacing the entire abs pump with ECU module. I don't know if this has anything to do with what you call the CAB's. If so, I personally feel it should be "ABC" for antilock brake controller, lol. I will inform you of the outcome, of my findings. Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Please, I don't want to be master of the obvious, but did you check the brake fluid level?

There is a sort of brake fluid level gauge and it should alert you with the red BRAKE light if the fluid goes low. [I think]
The ABS may also illuminate as it won't work properly is the fluid is empty either.

Beware getting out the parts cannon, it gets real expensive real fast. Diagnose and then replace parts, always.

*Search TPM or TIPM faults and repairs, watch YouTube videos [eric the car guy] had some good info aboout tthe TIPM (aka The Fuse Box) [sorry, I was speaking Canadian for a moment, didn't see your stars and bars]
*Flipping that thing over after releasing the tab and looking, wiggle wires, that is not what you should do.
All of the wiring starts and stops at that TIPM. Release the levers and pull those connectors off and look for blue/green corrosion OR burnt OR loose wiring. The connectors only go back on one way, try to NOT move them around, as they are organized in such a way that they fit back underneath. [Take pictures before for reference is always smart]
Many times just the operation of removing the connector and reinstalling it may 'refresh' the many electrical contacts in a connector.

You may have another wheel speed sensor gone bad. Diagnose and THEN replace. Maybe one of the new ones went bad. Mopar parts are pretty reliable, some of the Amazon wheel sensors may be questionable. I usually get what I paid for.

Please, I took a bit of time sharing my experience tonight. Please return and let us know what you end up finding or what you end up doing, even if you trade her in and buy a Tesla. Don't be ashamed if you make a mistake, tell us so the next guy doesn't make the same mistakes. So I don't continue to make the same recommendations...
Even if you end up taking it to a shop, tell us how they fixed it and what parts were required.

Good Luck, I look forward to hearing more about your red BRAKE and amber ABS lights being repaired.
Cheers!
Please, I don't want to be master of the obvious, but did you check the brake fluid level?

There is a sort of brake fluid level gauge and it should alert you with the red BRAKE light if the fluid goes low. [I think]
The ABS may also illuminate as it won't work properly is the fluid is empty either.

Beware getting out the parts cannon, it gets real expensive real fast. Diagnose and then replace parts, always.

*Search TPM or TIPM faults and repairs, watch YouTube videos [eric the car guy] had some good info aboout tthe TIPM (aka The Fuse Box) [sorry, I was speaking Canadian for a moment, didn't see your stars and bars]
*Flipping that thing over after releasing the tab and looking, wiggle wires, that is not what you should do.
All of the wiring starts and stops at that TIPM. Release the levers and pull those connectors off and look for blue/green corrosion OR burnt OR loose wiring. The connectors only go back on one way, try to NOT move them around, as they are organized in such a way that they fit back underneath. [Take pictures before for reference is always smart]
Many times just the operation of removing the connector and reinstalling it may 'refresh' the many electrical contacts in a connector.

You may have another wheel speed sensor gone bad. Diagnose and THEN replace. Maybe one of the new ones went bad. Mopar parts are pretty reliable, some of the Amazon wheel sensors may be questionable. I usually get what I paid for.

Please, I took a bit of time sharing my experience tonight. Please return and let us know what you end up finding or what you end up doing, even if you trade her in and buy a Tesla. Don't be ashamed if you make a mistake, tell us so the next guy doesn't make the same mistakes. So I don't continue to make the same recommendations...
Even if you end up taking it to a shop, tell us how they fixed it and what parts were required.

Good Luck, I look forward to hearing more about your red BRAKE and amber ABS lights being repaired.
Cheers!
Thank you FabricGator, yes, the master cylinder is filled to normal level. The part about "pulling out or temporarily disconnecting a connector" sounds like a viable option. That, I can do. And I Always take photos before anything.

When I did flip fuse box over and inspected underneath, I did not see (that green rust corrosion I've seen in some wires), and all wires although dusty,, were solid and no signs of the abominable snowman's finger prints.. However, I find it a bit difficult for trouble to just start in that area, if noone has been tinkering there. But, I guess anything is possible.
So, to be cooperative, I will be turning backto these posts as I usually do, to inform my findings and repairs. Thanks again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yep. I have attached a page from the factory chassis diagnostic manual that discusses the function of the ABS warning lamp. Specifically it states:

The ABS Warning Indicator will remain lit during
every key cycle until a circuit or component fault is
repaired and the CAB no longer detects the fault.
After repair of a sensor signal fault or a pump motor
fault, the CAB must sense all four wheels at 25
km/h (15 mph) before it will extinguish the ABS and
TRAC OFF Indicators.


Bottom line: as long as a problem is still detected by the CAB the lamp will stay on. Conversely, if the problem is no longer detected the lamp will go out on its own. I know this for a fact from experience with my own van. We frequently drive some very dusty gravel/dirt roads in the Everglades. Often the ABS light will come on while we are out there. I'm guessing the dust somehow interferes with the operation of one or more of the wheel speed sensors. The light always turns off on its own as it did again this past weekend. I don't worry about it and I don't even know what trouble code is.

As far as the red brake warning lamp the same page of the manual states:

The red BRAKE warning indicator is also located
in the instrument cluster. It can be activated in
several ways. Application of the parking brake or a
low fluid signal from the fluid level switch located in
the master cylinder reservoir will cause the indicator
to come on.


This statement is somewhat ambiguous as it says the lamp is "activated in several ways" and explains two of those ways. It doesn't say those are the only ways though it kinda implies that.

Anyway, you've got the brake fluid level sensor on the side of the master cylinder and the parking brake switch that can turn on the red brake warning light. Both switches are normally open and work by grounding the circuit to indicate a problem. You should be able to disconnect either one to see whether there is a problem with that particular switch. If the light turns off when disconnected, well, there's your problem.

I took a look at the wiring diagrams to see how both of these inputs interact with the light in the cluster. The parking brake switch is directly wired to the cluster. The brake fluid level sensor is a direct input to the front control module (that small module on the front of the IPM) where the message is presumably sent to the cluster via the PCI data bus.

To summarize, the bad news is that your new scan tool will not turn off any lights as long as the CAB sees a problem. The good news is that you will probably be able to use your new scan tool to help diagnose why your ABS light is coming on.

View attachment 65930
Well Rusty, and whoever is following this thread,, Today 4/26/22, I connected the Innova 6100p scanner to my van, and it did its thing.
Now originally I had explained that months ago I had experienced some abnormal pulsating at the brake pedal, and that at some point, the pedal sank almost to the floor. Checking back on the printout scanner when transmission was to be replaced, the fault codes mentioned were 10,11 & 20. Left front sensor circuit failure, left front speed sensor circuit failure, and pump circuit failure.

Today, the scanner indicated to go buy a New Van! 😆 🤣.. (kidding, had to throw that in). It came with all wheel sensors signal N/A, and in addition, ECU internal failure, hydraulic pump circuit failure, valve power feed failure!

So pretty much, I have to replace the entire abs pump with module, unless there's something extra outside that ABS pump. So there ya have it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
To start, I'd clear all the codes and then go for a drive to see what comes back. [hard fault]
Check for an ABS fuse and check that it is not blown.
Well Gator, I think I did it. I figured, the abs trouble codes must still be in computers memory, so I used the scanner to erase all codes, it indicated all codes erased. I started engine, and sure enough, the light went off. Of course, if something truly is bad with the abs system, I'm sure that light will come back on. Now, I only had the Brake light on. So I went under and tried pulling the connector off, and the whole thingy (connector with copper contact) came off..lol. However brake light went out..lol. So now I have the chore of fixing what I broke, unless I can fit it back in place, it's not really Broken, its just out of the white housing. I'll see.. Wish I could post photos..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I have the same problem with my 2005 GC and cannot find the reason why.
All electrical connections test normal.
Van brakes fine but no ABS.
Perhaps our CABs are misfunctioning?
See post Red Brake and Amber ABS Warning Lights.

Rusty Oldford in Canada.
Well Rusty, things haven't panned out yet for me. I thought had managed to turn off the abs and brake lights, using the code scanner tool and disconnecting the parking brake wire connector, but "No Cigar". A while later I went out to pickup wife, and inside 5secs both lights came on. My next move is to re-scan even though I am pretty sure the code of abs pump failure will pop up, I am prepared to angle my next repair be, replacing the abs pump..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Well Gator, I think I did it. I figured, the abs trouble codes must still be in computers memory, so I used the scanner to erase all codes, it indicated all codes erased. I started engine, and sure enough, the light went off. Of course, if something truly is bad with the abs system, I'm sure that light will come back on. Now, I only had the Brake light on. So I went under and tried pulling the connector off, and the whole thingy (connector with copper contact) came off..lol. However brake light went out..lol. So now I have the chore of fixing what I broke, unless I can fit it back in place, it's not really Broken, its just out of the white housing. I'll see.. Wish I could post photos..
Long story short, both ABS and brake lights are back on! My next move or repair, will be in couple of weeks, when temps reach at least 70°.. it will be to replace ABS pump..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Hi Mopar John, I do not have the ABS Pump codes, just codes for the 2 ABS Front Sensors. Perhaps my reader does not "see" pump codes. It's definitely not my parking brake or low brake fluid sensor with my van. No grounds are being applied on either of these circuits. I'm in no rush to fix her because we do not have inspections here and I've brought the T and C out of winter storage. Good luck with the pump. MJ.. Please keep us posted. Rusty
Well Rusty, lucky you for No Inspections in your neck of the woods. As I said, I did re-scan the abs system, and sure enough, all same codes registered. So there's no choice now, I have to replace that pump. Weird thing is, my brakes are working fine.

But having the brake light go out, after I disconnected the parking brake wire connector, and then come back on along with abs light tends to tell me they work in conjunction, and the abs problem needs to be corrected and then the brake light would go out.

Another thing I will attempt is, in the next few days we expect some rain. I will test a theory with the abs function. I will find an empty area, where I can pickup speed, and slam the brakes, to see if the abs actuate its pulsating function. If it does pulsate, then the darn thing is working, correct? However if it doesn't, then abs pump is truly bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
If the TRAC OFF message is on on your instrument cluster it won’t pulsate the brakes. I believe trac off will always show up when the ABS light is on. I still have a feeling it’s more an electrical issue than an internal pump issue but I’m not very experienced working with cars yet
This van doesn't have abs with track.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
ABS modulator pump draws fairly high current (on order of 20+ Amps) if any of the wiring, connectors or ground points have poor contact the high circuit resistance will limit current available to the pump and it won't run or will run but won't build enough pressure... (or will "brown out" CAB electronic controls due to dropping voltage)
I checked as far as I can, I am now searching for a pump, so I can replace it. The brake light comes on and off. But I imagine all that nonsense will stop once pump is replaced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
MJ. I have not got around to looking at mine yet...I've all summer to do that because we have other cars and the 2005 GC is my winter beater.
Oddly, last week during a heavy rainfall day, the red brake light went out but came back on the following day. This is our 2nd Dodge C Caravan to do this. Three years ago my son's did that when a front brake caliper stuck ...then went out when the caliper was released. It never did it again!
Rusty.
Hello Rusty,
The steady abs light is still on. The red brake light is intermittent. On Friday I received an abs pump unit I ordered on ebay. Problem is, I have not found Any videos on YouTube for this job, NONE at all. However, I did see one where the guy replaced the electronic module from the mechanical pump.

And since the code did indicate a pump circuit failure, (electronic) I feel I can do the same. I had wished I could replace the both together, but I went under the van and looked hi and lo and could Not find a way to remove the two hold down bolts hidden above and over the cradle, (which cannot be reached unless tranny is lowered), and I'm Not about to go that distance.

If replacing the electronic module does not put everything to work again normally and wipe abs light, I'll stay that way till I buy a newer Van by end of the summer or next year.
Will let you know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
MJ I had a quick look at the location/replacement of the ABS pump on the Brake Section of the repair manual.
Have you seen this?

Rusty
Wow Rusty, No, I hadn't seen this.. this pdf is quite informative, thank you.

I find it difficult to follow through with how these procedures go, bcuz for one, the mounting bracket shape on this one is different from mine, and mine has only two bolts. So getting to the bolts is a jammer.

The method thru the steering column floor seems possible. I'd have to check that out. The good thing is I have great weather to work, but, my inspection is due next Monday and if I Now disconnect the battery, I erase All the good computer codes necessary for DMV inspection to read, and that will postpone me with a temp sticker. I don't want to go thru that, so I'll wait till inspection is done, good thing Check-engine light is Not on. That would Definitely fail inspection. But in the end, I will first try to replace electronic part of pump.

And if push comes to pull, I'll attempt the pump thru steering floor plate. Thx again.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
MJ If I understand correctly, your "new" unit has only 2 bolts securing it to the mounting bracket instead of 3 like the instructions in the pdf?
I think the image shows 2 mounting locations for the bracket to the van, not the "new" unit to the to the bracket?
Perhaps there are various configurations.
Rusty
Rusty, what I was referring to, in removing the pump, was in regards to "removal of the mounting bracket" from the van chassis. It has 2 bolts attaching it to the chassis and after those two bolts are removed the 3 bolts that hold pump to mount are removed After pump with mount is out. But the procedure expands at this point, into first loosening the brake lines while the pump is firm. Removing the 3 bolts that hold pump to mount bracket will be done After brake lines are completely separated, And the wiring harness connector is disconnected.

I wanted to ask:: from what year town and country are these manual pages from or for? I am wondering if the steering column access hole allows access to the 3 bolts that hold the pump, (leaving mount untouched) Or, access to the 2 bolts that hold the mount bracket to chassis?? Can you tell me?

I am going to re-read / review these procedures, to get a good understanding.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top