The Chrysler Minivan Fan Club Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone. I'm rather desperate to find a solution.'97 Grand Caravan 3.0 3 speed. It started about 2 months ago, stalled backing out of driveway. A few days later it died on the interstate at highway speed.
Shifted to neutral and started. the next day it stalled and didn't start after a few seconds started Then it didn't want to start then I limped home running on 4-5 cylinders. later that night it ran fine.
The next few days I installed all new relays. Never a code with all of this. I installed a new fuel pump and filter. I figured with 220,000 miles it was due. Every time I tried to diagnose it, all was well.
Then one day I notice it had a cam sensor code, Which is in the distributor. Replaced the distributor, they won't sell sensor separate. Still stalled off and on mostly when warm. I replaced thermostat
and some hoses. Still did the same 2 or three times a day. no codes. It stalled on the interstate and towed it to a (good) shop. After them working on it for 2 days it was the same. I wasn't taking it back and it cost a fortune with no result.
Anyhow after a few more attempts I found the crank sensor got it running again Then in a few days another one different brand to get it going again. maybe another week, died again. A couple more tow jobs and sensors.

Then I started to check the wire harnesses. It's been 6 days cutting rock hard insulation off to find all the wires within like welded together solid. Been pulling 1 wire at a time out of each harness and inspecting each one for melt through wires shorting.
Felt confident, but only maybes on shorts as bad as they were melted. Took off for work and only went 1 1/2 blocks , stalled and no start even with starting fluid, (sometimes works). Got back home and no start so I could finally hook up my coil tester and NO SPARK . Let it cool and spark back and run. Today I finished pulling apart the rest of the harness under the battery and tray junction block to the pcm Cut separated ran continuity from pcm to coil. At the time I got towed back it was only running
for about 20 minutes. I ran it with a test light single coil with distributor. Key on test light on 1 sec. fuel pump heard.off 1 sec then on solid. When it stalls light off.
Is there a way to jump a key on off wire to jump to the pcm to keep it running. (The pcm is new also and doing the same) Is this coming from an intermittent signal from the crank sensor or flywheel. My Haynes Manual has no wiring diag. of single coil.
Thanks for listening.
 

·
3rd Gen Plebeian
Joined
·
324 Posts
You're on the right track, there's 4 electromagnet parts on our van, prone to failure, which can completely kill the engine, and often do it intermittent when they fail.
Ignition coil, fuel pump, crankshaft position sensor, and camshaft position sensor.
You can measure the resistance on the two position sensors, and both the primary and secondary resistance on the ignition coil.
 

·
3rd Gen Plebeian
Joined
·
324 Posts
IGNITION SWITCH ON (ZERO RPM) MODE
When the multi-port fuel injection system is activated by the ignition switch, the following actions
occur:
• The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure
from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel
strategy.
• The PCM monitors the coolant temperature sensor and throttle position sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy based on this input.
When the key is in the ON position and the engine
is not running (zero rpm), the Automatic Shutdown
(ASD) relay and fuel pump relay are not energized.
Therefore battery voltage is not supplied to the fuel
pump, ignition coil, fuel injectors or oxygen sensor
heating element.


ENGINE START-UP MODE
This is an OPEN LOOP mode. The following
actions occur when the starter motor is engaged.
If the PCM receives the camshaft position sensor
and crankshaft position sensor signals, it energizes
the ASD relay and fuel pump relay. These relays supply battery voltage to the fuel pump, fuel injectors,
ignition coil, and oxygen sensor heating element. If
the PCM does not receive the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals within
approximately one second, it de-energizes the ASD
relay and fuel pump relay.

The PCM energizes all injectors until it determines
crankshaft position from the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals. The PCM
determines crankshaft position within 1 engine revolution.
After determining crankshaft position, the PCM
begins energizing the injectors in sequence. The PCM
adjusts injector pulse width and controls injector synchronization by turning the individual ground paths
to the injectors On and Off.
When the engine idles within 664 RPM of its target RPM, the PCM compares current MAP sensor
value with the atmospheric pressure value received
during the Ignition Switch On (zero RPM) mode. If
the PCM does not detect a minimum difference
between the two values, it sets a MAP diagnostic
trouble code into memory.
Once the ASD and fuel pump relays have been
energized, the PCM:
• Determines injector pulse width based on engine
coolant temperature, MAP and the number of engine
revolutions since cranking was initiated.
• Monitors the engine coolant temperature sensor,
camshaft position sensor, crankshaft position sensor,
MAP sensor, and throttle position sensor to determine correct ignition timing.
^^^Chrysler Factory Service Manual Quote^^^
Its important to note that the ignition coil and fuel pump are not energized when the key is turned on and the engine is at zero RPM. They only energize while the PCM is reading valid camshaft and crankshaft position pulses.



Here is the Manual's Procedure for testing a no start condition, this will verify operation of the Camshaft position sensor, Crankshaft position sensor, and ASD relay.
56542

I cant find an image of the 3.0L ignition coil pinout, the 3.0L isnt very well covered in the electrical schematics or plug pinouts of the manual.






I think the most valuable information though, is the P1391 code you have. There is not a separate code for the Camshaft or Crankshaft position sensor, it is the same code if either fails intermittently. There are the following codes specific to each component though-
  • (hex01) P0340 No Camshaft signal detected during engine cranking
  • (hex0A) No Code No output from the ASD relay
  • (hex28) No Code No Crankshaft Signal detected during engine cranking
The two codes with only a hex value and no code cannot be read with a generic scanner tool, and will not illuminate the Check Engine Light.


Good luck! Make sure to come back and post if you are successful or fail, it adds to the pool of internet knowledge if we find out what the problem actually was.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Have been working on the van everyday for over a week now. I have been not able to get to work.. Thank you for your very kind replies for help, Special Edy.
After replacing 5 crank sensors, Each, would work for a smaller amount of time. I finally had to order a connector, as I saw it was cracked and the pins were not
supported and crooked. I could wiggle the harness and it would stall.. Stripping the harness I found All the wires were melted like a solid stick of wires.
I could see the next harness was the same from engine and exhaust heat., Every wire had to be peeled and inspected from all the stick of wires. All Harness.
I would strip and inspect one section at a time and see how it would run. It finally got to where it would only run for a few minutes. The 3 wires now soldered to the sensor wires without
the connector. and now it won't start. I have voltage and ground but don't know how read sensor signal to PCM. Also I have been using 2 testlights 1 at the PCM and 1 at the coil
on the green w/orange wire. Shows fuel pump on and ign on. When it stalls the light goes off. Checked gray wire from crank sensor to PCM with ohmeter ok there.
I don't know what to do next???....Or wait for connector. I don't understand,with all the work done it is only running for shorter runs and now nothing. I feel that I'm missing
something. Don't know if this flywheel cracks or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Just a shot in the dark, have you checked for the cracked solder joints on the speedo cluster, if not search that!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Splain, I soldered those about 4 years ago, I'll check again, good idea!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
All day I spent pulling the last wire harness apart in front of transmission. It goes down to trans pan then loops up to go to the PCM and junction box. Most of the wires were melted
together, but no core touch. I was following the gray wire that starts at the crank position sensor going to the PCM to check continuity. Previously last night. I had connected the crank
sensor direct to the harness and no start. After checking that harness today it started for about 15 minutes. Then checked codes and it was cam crank and lock up solenoid. I hooked up a volt meter to the cam sensor (3d new one) distributor to check 5v and ground. Started and it didn't stop. Had found Nothing that had caused it to start Let it run for an hour then around the block again a few times.Wiggled all the harness. wouldn't quit.
I'll try to get to worktomorrow about 15 miles. No more AAA tows left. $90.00 now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Today I warmed the van up for about 30 minutes. Stalled in driveway decided to tow it to a shop recommended from my boss.
I could get code for cam sensor again. When I check from volt to ground wires with d voltmeter the van starts! A friend brought over his new scanner.
He ran many tests and only found the cam sensor code. Maybe tow it tomorrow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Had an appointment for a doctor today. My AAA has run out of tows All the others want cash only in this area.My boss is arranging a tow maybe this afternoon.
Starts and runs at this time.
 

·
3rd Gen Plebeian
Joined
·
324 Posts
I would demand another distributor from wherever you purchased it from. Earl D had this situation happen to him, hopefully you've read his thread. His van was having the same issues as yours. He replaced the crank sensor, cam sensor, meticulously checked everything mechanical and electrical. Then he rechecked the "new" crankshaft position sensor, and found out it was bad. Bought a second "new" crankshaft position sensor and his van fired right up.

Dont feel guilty about it. At this point you have invested a monumental amount of time into this, and the only thing you are left with is the computer saying bad Cam Sensor. They need to replace that part for you. You have acted in good faith, but you can only ignore for so long that the computer is telling you that their distributor is bad and was bad from the moment it was installed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Color me cloudy, but any 3.0 I've ever owned has never had a Cam/Crank sensor as they use the Distributor for ignition duties, is this something they added in the later years?
 

·
3rd Gen Plebeian
Joined
·
324 Posts
Color me cloudy, but any 3.0 I've ever owned has never had a Cam/Crank sensor as they use the Distributor for ignition duties, is this something they added in the later years?
Fuel injector pulse timing
Ignition Coil pulse timing
RPM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Special Edy and Long_Voyager, Thank you for your input. My Boss had it towed to his friends shop. I haven't been to work in 2 weeks.
I don't know when he will look at it. That was the last thing I did was check voltage @ the cam sensor and it started, but quit in 30 min..
I though another "code".
A year ago, it wouldn't start after work . I did all the checks there and it had everything, but no start. I towed it home.
It was getting spark at the spark plug end of the wires. No codes . My thought was the cam sensor must be goofing the timing up. Back then
you could buy the sensor by itself. Didn't work. Found the rotor was partially arched enough it would spark the plug on the open air, but not
to fire it under compression cold.
I replaced this distributor a few months back. Because of the stalling problem. I need to look for a receipt. then call the mechanic and see if he or I can swap it. I remember it was
doing the same thing exactly before and after replacement . Just now it sets a code.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Waiting to hear from the mechanic. Still looking for the receipt for the distributor. Does anyone know what (V) signal one would expect on the cam or crank sensor signal wires?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Waiting to hear from the mechanic. Still looking for the receipt for the distributor. Does anyone know what (V) signal one would expect on the cam or crank sensor signal wires?
Have you installed a new coil?
I've had plenty of coils go bad over the years on 3.0s, they get weak or crack and will cause all kinds of issues, many times they will overheat and cause a no start, generally misdiagnosed as a bad crank sensor or bad distributor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Yes I installed another coil about 9 months ago. Both it and the coil wire were arching very badly. Even after making a set of 8mm wires the coil wire would arch, So had to use a stock wire.
My bosses mechanic, today found the alternator was overcharging to 14.8v. When it would do that then the pcm would shut down. This problem started 2 months before I towed it to the first shop
to have someone look at it. They told me the voltage regulator was in the PCM and they would install a new alternator with an external regulator that would boost and stabilize voltage. Since then I have replaced the PCM. I think it is haunted?!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I thought of getting too hot that was the 2nd thing I did. After a collision I had about 9 months ago. I replaced the radiator, condenser and fans. After this started I thought of heat.
It was at 215 deg. I temporary gutted the thermostat and now it runs at 185deg.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Yes I installed another coil about 9 months ago. Both it and the coil wire were arching very badly. Even after making a set of 8mm wires the coil wire would arch, So had to use a stock wire.
My bosses mechanic, today found the alternator was overcharging to 14.8v. When it would do that then the pcm would shut down. This problem started 2 months before I towed it to the first shop
to have someone look at it. They told me the voltage regulator was in the PCM and they would install a new alternator with an external regulator that would boost and stabilize voltage. Since then I have replaced the PCM. I think it is haunted?!
I don't know who you're having do your work, but they sound shady as fuck. Mechanics that are actually capable of working on these vans and doing it right are very few and very far between, it sounds to me like you have a bunch of morons throwing parts at it with no idea what the actual problem is.

If your regulator is in the PCM and it's not regulating, why would you change the alternator instead of fixing the faulty PCM?!?!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
I had been doing all the work for the stalling until I had it towed the first time. Tow talked me in to taking it to the first shop.
They put in the alternator and said the regulator was intermittently bad in the pcm. Didn't work.Next day. they said the fuel injectors were dirty.
That didn't work either and I never went back. along the way I've replaced 2 pcm and another shop just finished another this week and it still didn't make it home last night.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Have you checked the connection at your MAP sensor?
My 3.0 powered car used to lose connection at the MAP sensor and it would stall out. Most times it would start right back up, but sometimes it wouldn't start until I wiggled the connection.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top