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youtube.com/sideburns2009
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A friend of mine has a 1996 Plymouth Grand Voyager SE. It has the 3.3L V6 and 220,000 miles. The transmission had been rebuilt 4 times(I went with them the last time and asked what type of fluid was being used....dexron of course)Anyway, it began having an issue. When the engine was cold, it would start up and run fine until it warmed up to open loop then it would start missing and bucking. Turn it off and let it cool down then it would start up and drive fine until warm and repeat. They had the BCM and PCM replaced (i'm not sure who diagnosed those as the culprit) and it still did it. I told him I'd take a look at it. I danced the key and got code 43(the ignition coil driver circuit is open or shorted) and random cylinder misfire and something about the cam sensor. It's been awhile, I can't remember. So I started with the simple things...well not so simple in this case...I replaced the plugs, wires, and coil pack....still did it and still got code 43 with the new coil pack. A friend of mine has a Snap-On Modis so I got it hooked up to that and test EVERY single sensor on the engine manually, they all tested fine and seemed to be working correctly according to the Modis. It eventually got to the point where even from cold it would misfire and when it warmed up it would stall and was almost impossible to keep running. Alright so far its had a PCM,BCM,plugs, wires, swapped cam sensor with the one from my van(just to eliminate the possibilities), coil pack and had all the sensors tested with the diagnosis mode on the Modis. It only got worse. It wouldn't run on all 6 cylinders at all anymore. I did a compression test and leak down test....all was well in that area and also checked the timing. NOTHING!!!!! I decided maybe it was the wiring. Went to the junk yard and found a '96 voyager with the 3.3 and pulled the entire engine wiring harness from it. I first replaced the section of the wire harness that goes to the fuel injectors, coil pack, and other sensors and when I started it, it ran perfect....until it warmed up, then it was missing and hard to keep running. Once cool, I started it again and it was back to full time missing from cold. I got out my service manual and my multimeter to check the wires between the pcm and coil pack and cam sensor. All at correct specs. Now it won't start at all. I am LOST. I haven't ever heard of such an issue with a vehicle except at carcomplaints.com where someone with a '97 t&c had the same problem but gave up on fixing it. This guy loves his van but I'm afraid I don't know what to do. This isn't so much as a "help me" but a very entertaining story. :ask_wsign :ask_wsign :nut: I did also replace the coolant temp sensor for the h3ll of it. Anyone ever heard of such a headache from a 3rd gen?
 

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You might want to consider having the compression tested. I worked on an engine years ago that exhibited the exact symptoms that you're describing and it turned out to have a badly burned intake valve.

Just a thought.
 

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youtube.com/sideburns2009
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You might want to consider having the compression tested. I worked on an engine years ago that exhibited the exact symptoms that you're describing and it turned out to have a badly burned intake valve.

Just a thought.
Well I know its a long story to read so you may have missed it but I already did a compression test and cylinder leak down test, both came out ok. I have no idea. Its cursed I guess.
 

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Well I know its a long story to read so you may have missed it but I already did a compression test and cylinder leak down test, both came out ok. I have no idea. Its cursed I guess.
Okay, we now know that the engine is mechanically sound enough to operate, that's good. :ThumbsUp: I may have missed it, but did you get a chance to change the cam position and the crank position sensors?
 

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A MIL code 43 can be broken down to 10 different scanner codes. P0351, 52, 53 for identifying individual failed coil circuits in the three coils in the coil pack. Then there's the seven misfire codes identifying which cylinder is misfiring, including the multiple misfire P0300 code. The later group can be tricky to troubleshoot, especially the P0300. Once you get it running and if you're still seeing MIL code 43, I would connect a scanner again and narrow down exactly what is firing the 43. Here's some tips on what to look for: http://www.obd-codes.com/p0300

Are you missing fuel or spark that's keeping it from starting? It cranks correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Okay, we now know that the engine is mechanically sound enough to operate, that's good. :ThumbsUp: I may have missed it, but did you get a chance to change the cam position and the crank position sensors?
The only code I got was for the cam sensor. I swapped the cam sensor from my '97 to it and still didn't help. :( I didn't touch the crank sensor and I checked the timing.

A MIL code 43 can be broken down to 10 different scanner codes. P0351, 52, 53 for identifying individual failed coil circuits in the three coils in the coil pack. Then there's the seven misfire codes identifying which cylinder is misfiring, including the multiple misfire P0300 code. The later group can be tricky to troubleshoot, especially the P0300. Once you get it running and if you're still seeing MIL code 43, I would connect a scanner again and narrow down exactly what is firing the 43. Here's some tips on what to look for: http://www.obd-codes.com/p0300

Are you missing fuel or spark that's keeping it from starting? It cranks correct?
It cranks but no longer even starts. I replaced the coil pack, wiring harness leading to it, and checked the wires from the PCM with my multimeter. It was a random cylinder misfire, or code p0300. Do you think the PCM or BCM that was replaced could have been replaced with a faulty one?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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Ok, it won't start. Are you getting fuel? Do you hear the fuel pump come on briefly when you turn the key to on? When you push the plunger on the fuel rail test port and you're cranking the engine, do you see fuel spurt out the port? If your answer is no to all of these you need to determine if the pump or it's control circuit is at fault.

Are you getting spark? Connect a timing light to each plug wire and crank the engine. Does the light flash on every wire? No timing light? The old standby is pull the plug, touch it to ground, and check for a strong blue spark as you crank. No spark? Repeat your previous steps to determine why. Is the PCM getting power to the coil? Is the coil powering the plugs, etc.

Could it be another PCM ? Sure but, odds are, at least at this point, no. You know at least part of the PCM circuit is working, meaning the PCM is providing the ground to the starter relay coil. Is the PCM cutting power to the ASD relay due to a faulty crank sensor (it often fails without generating a code)? Is the ASD circuit failing? Is the PCM getting power to the coil? Lots to look at before you go for another PCM.

I'm missing something. I understand you've got two problems now but, you're already looking at a second PCM for the starting issue yet you're discounting the EGR system for the rough running issue because the valve was changed 15K miles ago. Why? As caravan1977 pointed out and as noted in the link I sent you, the EGR system is a viable candidate for a P0300 code. Don't get caught in that "Oh it couldn't be that" trap. Check it. Eliminate it. Move on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Ok, it won't start. Are you getting fuel? Do you hear the fuel pump come on briefly when you turn the key to on? When you push the plunger on the fuel rail test port and you're cranking the engine, do you see fuel spurt out the port? If your answer is no to all of these you need to determine if the pump or it's control circuit is at fault.

Are you getting spark? Connect a timing light to each plug wire and crank the engine. Does the light flash on every wire? No timing light? The old standby is pull the plug, touch it to ground, and check for a strong blue spark as you crank. No spark? Repeat your previous steps to determine why. Is the PCM getting power to the coil? Is the coil powering the plugs, etc.

Could it be another PCM ? Sure but, odds are, at least at this point, no. You know at least part of the PCM circuit is working, meaning the PCM is providing the ground to the starter relay coil. Is the PCM cutting power to the ASD relay due to a faulty crank sensor (it often fails without generating a code)? Is the ASD circuit failing? Is the PCM getting power to the coil? Lots to look at before you go for another PCM.

I'm missing something. I understand you've got two problems now but, you're already looking at a second PCM for the starting issue yet you're discounting the EGR system for the rough running issue because the valve was changed 15K miles ago. Why? As caravan1977 pointed out and as noted in the link I sent you, the EGR system is a viable candidate for a P0300 code. Don't get caught in that "Oh it couldn't be that" trap. Check it. Eliminate it. Move on.
Getting fuel and now its not getting spark, as to when it did run it was getting spark because I checked each wire. Why would it stop getting spark when it has a new coil pack? Also the coil pack reached a temperature that was so hot, I couldn't even hold my hand on it...I dont think thats normal. It's like its got a constant signal going to the coilpack instead of a pulsating one to allow the coil to discharge, causing the spark...maybe. I don't really think the EGR has anything to do with it at this point thats the only reason I'm not worried about it right now. I completely forgot about the ASD system, isn't it tied in with the fuel pump? and wouldn't it cause the fuel pump to malfunction had it failed or no? I'm not sure.
 

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Sounds like something is shorting out the coil pack.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

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But I don't know what. I'm ready to scrap this van. :(
Eh, just drop the engine on the head of someone you really don't like, and put a new one in! Simple as that. And then, as Shipo says "driver her 'till she drops!" :biggrin:
 

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Eh, just drop the engine on the head of someone you really don't like, and put a new one in! Simple as that. And then, as Shipo says "driver her 'till she drops!" :biggrin:
The thing is, it sounds like the engine is solid, it's the electrics that are a bit dodgy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The thing is, it sounds like the engine is solid, it's the electrics that are a bit dodgy.
Electrics can be one of my weaker area, though I've testing all wiring that I know to check.(going to the cam sensor and coil pack, etc) :confused:
 
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