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AC Fully Charged, but temp won't get below 65 deg....???

11K views 32 replies 9 participants last post by  FabricGATOR 
#1 ·
Hey guys!

I've got an 03 3.8 with Climate Control, we replaced the compressor last year but it has never really gotten "Cold"... it does get "Cool" when you're running down the highway, but I still have to have it on high the whole time.... even with all three zones on "Lo".... I tested the temp today and the lowest it got down to was like 71 deg...

Things I know..

Charge is good with no leaks
I have always kept the cabin filter changed and in good shape
I've hosed down the condenser coils the best I could with out removing anything
Fans are on
tube in engine bay is cool or borderline cold.. but not "COLD" like it should be - Ice cold or frosted up
Rear unit is producing the same or similar discharge air temps

I haven't checked the high side, thinking about picking up a cheap set of gauges from harbor freight to test.
I don't think the compressor is short cycling or anything but haven't had a chance to check that our for sure yet.

Didn't know if somebody has had similar issues and if so, what the fix or problem was?

Thanks
Rick
 
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#2 ·
What is the temp coming out of the vents? Also, you do need a set of inexpensive gauges to proceed, and the first step would be to check static pressures on a cold engine, which means nothing running.

For example, if the engine and car are at 90F, the static high and low side pressure is probably around 100psi.

My guess is that you're just low on R134.
 
#4 ·
What is the temp coming out of the vents? Also, you do need a set of inexpensive gauges to proceed, and the first step would be to check static pressures on a cold engine, which means nothing running.

For example, if the engine and car are at 90F, the static high and low side pressure is probably around 100psi.

My guess is that you're just low on R134.
lowest discharge air temp I have been able to get out of it at the vents is 65 deg. ... yesterday it was like 71 deg.

Ironically today on the way to work it was blowing out pretty cool,.. but it wasn't that hot out either (I didn't have my tester with me this morning.. )

I'll be picking up a set of gauges tonight and I'll do a static test tomorrow morning after everything has been sitting over night.

The system/compressor was installed late last summer and was vac'd down and proper charge applied along with die.... results are still the same as they were then - cool,. not cold. I'd be hard pressed to believe that it's not charged since I've checked it my self and adding an additional shot of 134,.. and also removing a bit as well just testing purposes ... but stranger things have happened that's for sure! :D
 
#3 · (Edited)
Welcome to the forum Werner1
What marvinstockman said.

You say you replaced the compressor last year. How about the condenser and the accumulator drier? The condenser's now a day are not able to be cleaned efficiently and it is recommended they are replaced, especially after a compressor failure as the condenser catches all the debris from a compressor failure. The condenser also becomes less efficient over the years as it becomes clogged, especially if a full vacuum was not pulled and corrosion forms within the system.

Remember, an air conditioning system only has a certain degree of efficiency. What is the outside temperature?

The system can only obtain so many degree difference. Perhaps it may not be operating inefficiently, rather you are just expecting the temperature to be colder than the law of physics will allow.

Check your state of charge. Then return and let us know what you find.
Remember, overcharging a system also can make it less efficient (and may damage the compressor).

Again, please return and tell us how you get your system repaired and what you find.
Welcome to the Mopar Minivan Garage!
 
#30 ·
Do not use this chart for PSI readings, only for Air Temp coming out of vents
View attachment 55852
I found two posts with this chart while researching my 5th generation Chrysler Town & Country A/C woes. This reference to it says not to use this for PSI readings. freggie, or anybody else, can you please clarify why this shouldn't be used for PSI readings?

The other reference is here: 2013 T&C Air Conditioning Diagram

(Also, sorry for necroposting, I can start a new thread asking about both charts as references if mods so desier.)
 
#8 ·
Welcome to the Forum.

Clutch working?

Without static and operating pressure measurements, can't say much. Seems you have done all the right things.
 
#9 ·
Ok guys... sorry been a crazy couple of days... but I was able to pick up some 134a quick couple adapters for my regular gauge set at home,.. so I went out yesterday morning before the van had been started or anything and hooked up the gauges...

So my static looks like: 82 Low / 82 High

Running Pressure: 38 Low / 178 High

Outside air temp was around 80 Deg. Humidity was a little high..

I Have a nice temp meter w/thermocouplers that we use at work - I tried to attach it to the "Cold" pipe in the engine compartment that is usually really cold, I didn't have my pipe clamp sensor with me, so I tried to tape it on the pipe that was already sweating,. and the lowest reading I got there was in the 60's

Clutch - I know I should have checked how it was cycling pretty much first, but you can't see it from the top and you have to jack up the vehicle and remove the inner/lower/front fender shroud to see the AC compressor.... didn't really have time for that yesterday morning.. I was trying to listen and watch the gauges,.. but honestly it wasn't obvious at all when the compressor was running or not... must be a super quiet cluch (?) haha!

fabricGATOR - I totally understand about the whole "Degree of Efficiency" thing... but even when it's not that hot out,. low 80's, it still doesn't pump out air temps lower than the 60's .... should be chuckin' ice cubes. :p

Thanks for all of suggestion and help thus far,.. I'm sure it's just a matter of time till we get to the bottom of this!

I must say I have been pleasantly surprised at the quantity and the quality of the responses on here - when I first stumbled upon this forum I really didn't think there'd be much "activity" .... but that's not the case!

Here's some pics of the gauge readings..

Analog watch Watch
Tire Automotive tire Tool accessory
 
#10 ·
Freggie seems to bring experience to the discussion. The blend door... yes.

Perhaps you could use a c-clamp and a few cuts of wood, to clamp a hot water hose, gently closed, going to the heater core and see if that makes a difference in the cabin... The heater water exits the engine block on my 3.8 behind where the large upper radiator hose is connected to the engine.

There is also a procedure that puts your climate controls through a calibration and check mode. Something about holding two button when turning it on. JeepMan? (not your cue for a fluid film plug, I'll cue you later for that...)
 
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#16 ·
Perhaps the condenser is internally full of crap and not working efficiently.
How/why did you replace the compressor? Did it have an internal failure that pumped debris through the system? The condenser is the fist place to collect it.
Many times the condensers today do not lend themselves to 'flushing' because the interconnect passageways are so small that they can not be effectively 'flushed out'. Poor condenser efficiency would be contributing to your situation.
That being said, you said " '03 with 3.8 climate control".. but did not state the mileage.
Baron too has a good point. If your evaporator is all buggered up with pet hair or even a cabin air filter that has not been replaced in ''forever" that too would be effecting the efficiency.

Remember, an HVAC system does not create cold air rather, think about it as a bilge pump. HVAC simply removes heat from the inside to the outside. Pumps the heat overboard. And that heat pump is only as efficient as the flow and transfer of the heat at all points.

There may be an aggregate of minor loss at several points and not just one 'ah ha' thing that is going to give you the results that you are searching for.
 
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#18 ·
Perhaps the condenser is internally full of crap and not working efficiently.
Our main goal here is to try and help others as much as we can.

I see your really like to help others, I usually like your responses but this time I think you are not 100% correct.

AC condenser doesn't gets internally "full of crap".

Condenser can only get externally damaged by a physical shock causing reduced internal refrigerant flow or leak or by "external" debris blocking air flow.

There are some "filters" in the system that will catch any impurity or humidity in the system. Even a catastrophic compressor failure wouldn't damage the condenser, some people recommend replacing a condenser after a compressor failure just to be on the safe side, but is not really necessary if you have the equipment to do a thorough cleaning and know how to use it.

I wouldn't spend money on a new condenser.

This is just my opinion.
 
#13 ·
High side is too low, should be in the 200's @ 80 F. Also when recharging some times the High side will go in the 350 to 400 range and drop down into the 200's when fans are running.
 
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#14 ·
Sorry guys,.. crazy 4th of July weekend!,.. on the bright side I did get my V65 Magna plated and rode it around a while! :D

Back to the T&C AC Problem..

I didn't have a chance to check out anything else on it yet..... next up on the list is:

1 - Visually inspect Clutch during operation
2 - Visually inspect Evaporator coil
3 - Physically block off Heater lines
4 - Check blend door operation/position

IF all items above are "OK"... would that indicate a defective (Open) expansion valve,.. and/or faulty compressor - doesn't seem like it's not compressing enough.. (???)
 
#15 · (Edited)
Easy way to check if clutch is working is to pull the relay and put it back in and listen if the clutch "clicks" on or clicks off when you pull the relay.

But... your clutch is working because the low/high pressures are in range, just a bit low....

Evaporator coil should be okay - no gunk because you change the the filter regularly.

Why block off the heater lines?

To do list:
check blend door
add r134a, then bleed if necessary to right static pressure
maybe check condenser and see if anything is blocking the airflow

bad expansion valve and high and low pressures would be off, they are in range, just low. too little r134a and it would not 'cool' as good, same with too much r134a
 
#17 ·
Still didn't get a chance to look at it last night,... and I'm busy all evening tonight and tomorrow night - Hockey season is just firing up for us and I have a band/music rehearsal tomorrow night... busy busy!

The compressor was replaced last summer due to it not coming on and/or a lack of performance - Ironically somewhat similar symptoms of which I'm experiencing now - only at that time it got to the point of not cooling at all. But it didn't blow up or anything as in start grinding and making noise or anything like that, so I think it shot a bunch of chunks and debris into the system - I've seen this happen in the past on other systems we've had - they call it "Black Death"
On one of those incidents with an 89 Cougar XR-7,. it shot crap into the evaporator and caused a blockage where the system could barely perform - I ended up holding the end of a socket extension against the outlet tube that I had in a 1/2 drive hammer drill that was set to "Hammer" only.. the intense vibration knocked the blockage loose and a dodged a bullet on that one! haha!

I've got 189,000 on this van,... and I've been pretty particular about keeping up with changing the cabin air filter - BUT I will try and get a peek at the evaporator.

I did try and have water spraying across the condenser coils while it was running one time, but didn't really notice a difference in temp change. Visually inspecting the coil from the front grill it look pretty good and clean (Unless the oil cooler is out in front?... couldn't really tell what's all in there.. (?)

I want to say it was a bit over filled when I first checked it (Or at least I thought it was.?) This was before I had the full set of gauges. I may try and put a shot in her real quick when I get home tonight and re-check the static pressures tomorrow morning early before I leave for work..

Thanks again for all of the support and suggestions on this problem!!
 
#19 ·
Ok a little update!...


I got home and put a shot or so of 134 in it... no change, checked the Clutch on the compressor and checked the Cabin air filter and Evap. coil...


Good news is:

1 - Compressor is ...compressing (Clutch is engaged)
2 - My Evaporator coil is clean as a whistle :D - filter was "ok"

.... as I pulled the cabin filter out I was blasted with HOT AIR out of the bottom filter access area/housing !!!!??!?! ... What the!?! .... Only thing I can think is that the blend door wasn't set up correctly?... but would that be hot air pumping through there... like is it drawing from the outside/engine area (I had just got home from St Louis and it was running in the driveway) ... or is the "Heat" on in the back ground or something...?

Uhhhhg!
 
#20 · (Edited)
there is a heater core the HVAC uses for heat, engine coolant runs through it and thats how you get "heat".

This van looks to be a bit different from other vehicles, looks like airflow goes from cowl intake to blower motor to filter then to evaporator. Then yes getting blasted with air sounds right. hot air though... something I'll have to take a look into. well if it was hot outside then yes you would get hot air... then airflow goes to evaporator core then maybe through heater core - depending on blend door position

if anything in the system was clogged, high and low pressures would be off, which is not your case

can you check the blend door next? thanks
 
#23 · (Edited)
I some times watch that guy's videos, for entertainment only. He makes money out of videos.

Let's suppose you replace compressor but you don't even flush the system.

Debris will not reach the compressor again, there are a couple of filters in the system (Receiver Drier /Accumulator, Expansion Valve Orifice Tube) that will catch any debris.

AC evaporator is placed in front of the radiator, a cheap evaporator may get easily damaged by road debris, I will prefer to leave the OE in place.

That little thingy Scotty uses is not to flush the system, he's funny.


Scotty talks before thinking.

Reason manufacturers can get away with smaller condenser piping is, the design is completely different.

On the first drawing you can see older condenser, it was just one line, a big loop. Should that line get clogged or crushed, the whole system would fail:




Newer condensers are made of many lines (like a radiator), if one of those lines fail, the other lines are capable of doing their work.



That is the main reason manufacturers changed design, not to save money. Of course, they saved money in the process.

 
#24 ·
Yeah, that guy is kinda like a quirky Dennis Hopper. Sometimes I wonder if he is krunk in the videos. I watched a few more last night, they can be entertaining for sure but... I must admit that although his delivery is a bit odd, his philosophy is similar to my own. I heard him say several thing that I myself have said over the years.

Levy, your diagrams and information is great. I certainly am not disputing what you are saying and I agree.
A few points.
While the drier assy would be a filter of sorts, if you are catching debris in other areas such as expansion devices or orifice tubes, you would have a whole new world of troubles. In fact the older vehicles it was a good idea, although few seldom performed this maintenance, it was a good idea to replace the acc/driers due to time, because the desiccant could become saturated and/or the bag that held it inside would/could deteriorate and send its own form of junk through the system.

What I was trying to say was the point, that over time, especially after a compressor greanades, that SOME of those tiny orifice tubes will become clogged and that will result in lost efficiency. If 10% are clogged, then the condenser is only able to transfer 90% of the heat it has scavenged from inside the cabin to outside the vehicle.
Yes, the system will continue to cool, just not as efficiently and that is what Werner1 is experiencing. It gets cool, but not cold enough.
Perhaps he is going through the change and is experiencing hot flashes. I often get them when consuming guajillo chiles with lunch....
 
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#25 ·
Yeah, that guy is kinda like a quirky Dennis Hopper. Sometimes I wonder if he is krunk in the videos. I watched a few more last night, they can be entertaining for sure but... I must admit that although his delivery is a bit odd, his philosophy is similar to my own. I heard him say several thing that I myself have said over the years.

Levy, your diagrams and information is great. I certainly am not disputing what you are saying and I agree.
A few points.
While the drier assy would be a filter of sorts, if you are catching debris in other areas such as expansion devices or orifice tubes, you would have a whole new world of troubles. In fact the older vehicles it was a good idea, although few seldom performed this maintenance, it was a good idea to replace the acc/driers due to time, because the desiccant could become saturated and/or the bag that held it inside would/could deteriorate and send its own form of junk through the system.

What I was trying to say was the point, that over time, especially after a compressor greanades, that SOME of those tiny orifice tubes will become clogged and that will result in lost efficiency. If 10% are clogged, then the condenser is only able to transfer 90% of the heat it has scavenged from inside the cabin to outside the vehicle.
Yes, the system will continue to cool, just not as efficiently and that is what Werner1 is experiencing. It gets cool, but not cold enough.
Perhaps he is going through the change and is experiencing hot flashes. I often get them when consuming guajillo chiles with lunch....
If you replace a compressor, it will be out of warranty if you don't also replace the drier and filter at the same time.

That being said, you must repace drier and filter everytime your system is serviced (No ifs, ands, or buts, every time refrigerant is replaced).
 
#26 ·
Okay so I had a little bit of time to double-check some things tonight...

1 - I pulled the recirculation actuator off and confirm the positioning of the recirc. Door,... it was rotated in the correct position towards the passenger door with the recirculation function off on the controls.

Next I visually inspected the Actuator motor as I turned the recirculation feature on Via the control panel, but motor did not move.... instantly thought motor was dead, but since I was into it this far decided to check voltage. No voltage present when the feature is on or off. Didn't see any blown fuses or anyting but I'm not sure which circuit controls that recirculation door motor?

I manually rotated the recirculation door so that it recirculates the inside cabin air I will give that a test tomorrow to see if it helps the AC keep up....
 
#27 ·
Finally got a chance to get up this morning and put the gauges on the van while it was still cold. Here's the results of my testing this morning...

Static Pressure @ 83°/55% rh = L/88.5 - H/88

I started the vehicle and let it warm up a little bit with the air conditioning on Max Lowe with the recirc door closed here are those results

L/44 - H/215 - lowest in Cabin temperature coming out of the center vent was 62°

Decided to take it down the road for about 5 minutes at 50 miles an hour Louis achievable in Cabin temperature was 56° @ 84° outside temp.

When I got home I left the van run at idle for a few minutes and then put the gauges back on it to test

L/69 - H/245 @ 86°/51% rh - Kevin discharge Air at this point was 69 degrees
 

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#31 ·
Well, I'll mention at least one part of the answer. The two charts aren't actually the same. I thought they were, but actually looked at the numbers instead of just the words in the posts around them. I still wish there was more clear information about this on these forums. I highly doubt A/C shops empty and refill to the spec under the hood, they likely use high/low pressures based on temperature and relative humidity.
 
#33 ·
Every refrigerant has a pressure temperature differential. R-12 (or was it R-22) was pretty close to ºF so of the pressure gauge reads 32 PSIg then the temperature of that fluid was 32ºF (or pretty close to it)

The AC manifold's have scales (most do) that if you read the fine print on the gauge in various colors that will call out a refrigerant for that color and will have that refrigerants p/t differential. Or you can refence a P&T chart for a refrigerant you are interested in (google)

Above in Post #27 Werner says:
When I got home I left the van run at idle for a few minutes and then put the gauges back on it to test

L/69 - H/245 @ 86°/51% rh - Kevin discharge Air at this point was 69 degrees
So the evaporator in this instance is about 67ºF and the condenser (outside front)is discharging heat at about 250ºF

** extra oil, if you are thinking oh, lets add oil... Extra oil uses up space that would otherwise be occupied by refrigerant. Tus making a refrigeration closed loop system less efficient

Always think of air conditioning or refrigeration like a bilge pump. you are moving heat
 
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