I would try a dealer parts department using the VIN number.

 

You need a different mechanic. For the past 40+ years cars have had ECUs, mechanics that don't know how to properly diagnose an issue will blame the ECU first and say it needs to be replaced. That is almost never the case.

 

Thank you!

I started thinking along these lines last night. I have a mid-range bi-directional scan tool arriving tomorrow to start the diagnosis process from scratch. I am aware that the codes don't always point directly to the problem, but I can't start the "what does this REALLY mean?" questions until I at least have the codes to ask about.

 

You have a 2005, so I'd wager a guess it may be electrical gremlins you are experiencing? If so, there should be a "punch list" somewhere on this site that identifies the likely causes/corrections.

Soldering the battery wire harness "clamped" terminations to their wires finally solved my issues... and I think the ground side was the culprit.

 

Here are the 2005 PCMs. Confirm part number with your vehicle's options. Note these are 20-year-old part numbers and may have been superseded by now.

Replacement PCMs have to be updated with a DRBIII scan tool. Does the shady dude have one?

BTW, terminology matters post-year 2000. The 2005s don't have an "ECU," per se. They have a PCM, TCM, FCM, IPM, etc. Sounds like we're splitting hairs here, but there are myriad modules on board and want to make sure we're talking about the same thing here.

 

Thank you! This looks like the information that I need.

 

It looks like the two applicable part numbers are 04748535AC and 05161324AA. Does this mean that I could use either, or is there more information needed to choose between the two? (Assuming that I end up needing one at all)

If either works, is there a reason to prefer one over the other?

 

The first batch of numbers is for the OE parts; the second batch is for generic replacement modules which were used by the dealership. Either one would need vehicle, VIN, and mileage programming so I don't think it would matter in the least. Either would work for a 3.3L van built after July 7, 2004. The NA1 code is for 'export emissions,' so it doesn't matter in your case.

To further muddy the water, the OE part number only supersedes to the pre-July 7 replacements, all with the '857' last three numbers:

This likely means they made a mid-year change to the modules. The replacements for the post-July 7 modules still retain the '324' as the last digits:

The R-prefix indicates remanufactured parts.

FWIW I think either would work as long as they're properly programmed. I'd be inclined to go for the later one, personally.

Best of luck! If you need to go the replacement route, there are a ton of PCM rebuilders/reprogrammers online.

 

Thanks! I have the later one sitting in my shopping cart awaiting the decision on whether or not I need it at all.

 

IIRC, the common melted wire harness problem generally doesn't apply to the 2005 as the harness was re-routed for the 2005 to alleviate the problem. That said, I'm sure there are still some other potential points of harness failure but shouldn't be the mess typically referred to as "the melted harness issue."

 

You know, we are all just chasing the lightening on this...
All that was said (asked) is what is the p/n so I can changed it the third time

Presuming that the car dealer's wrench maybe installed the wrong one because (IT) is still doing (IT)

I crave you a question sir...

What is the fault exhibited?

 

MIL Codes?

 

ScuzziOne, that makes sense. I couldn't see anywhere that any harness got close enough to the exhaust to be a concern.

I'm getting a P0344 - "Intermittent fault in the cam position sensor circuit" code that is often associated with wiring problems when a new cam position sensor doesn't fix it. I'll be going over the harnesses looking for abrasions or other signs of damage.

* OOPS! I TYPED THIS ^^^ UP YESTERDAY AND SOMEHOW DIDN'T SEND IT *

...continued:

I haven't had much time to dig deeper yet, but I was able to back probe the CPS connector and found 4.9v to 5.0v on the 5v reference wire and on the signal wire. There were no perceptible interruptions with poking, prodding, wiggling, tugging, etc. but the "intermittent" interval could be milliseconds on each revolution rather than now and then for an observable amount of time.

I don't think my scanner has live monitoring for this signal. If that proves to be true, I'll pull the wheel and inner fender off to back probe Connector #2 pin #34 to see if i get the same result, or if I have a bad wire.

While I'm there I'll check the crankshaft position sensor next-door at pin #35 and I'll get the PCM part number to compare to the part numbers identified above.

If that doesn't find the problem, I have the two next steps in mind which are:
1) running it with jumpers for each of the three wires and any combinations of the three to see what, if anything, fixes it; and
2) track down an oscilloscope somewhere and start looking for millisecond-type interruptions in those three wires. I'll do the same on the crankshaft position sensor while I'm there.

I think that is the end of the road for diagnosis outside of the PCM itself.

What did I miss?

 

ScuzziOne, that makes sense. I couldn't see anywhere that any harness got close enough to the exhaust to be a concern.

I'm getting a P0344 - "Intermittent fault in the cam position sensor circuit" code that is often associated with wiring problems when a new cam position sensor doesn't fix it. I'll be going over the harnesses looking for abrasions or other signs of damage.

OOPS! I TYPED THIS ^^^ UP YESTERDAY AND SOMEHOW DIDN'T SEND IT

...continued:

I haven't had much time to dig deeper yet, but I was able to back probe the CPS connector and found 4.9v to 5.0v on the 5v reference wire and on the signal wire. There were no perceptible interruptions with poking, prodding, wiggling, tugging, etc. but the "intermittent" interval could be milliseconds on each revolution rather than now and then for an observable amount of time.

I don't think my scanner has live monitoring for this signal. If that proves to be true, I'll pull the wheel and inner fender off to back probe Connector #2 pin #34 to see if i get the same result, or if I have a bad wire.

While I'm there I'll check the crankshaft position sensor next-door at pin #35 and I'll get the PCM part number to compare to the part numbers identified above.

If that doesn't find the problem, I have the two next steps in mind which are:
1) running it with jumpers for each of the three wires and any combinations of the three to see what, if anything, fixes it; and
2) track down an oscilloscope somewhere and start looking for millisecond-type interruptions in those three wires. I'll do the same on the crankshaft position sensor while I'm there.

I think that is the end of the road for diagnosis outside of the PCM itself.

What did I miss?

It occurred to me that I have the order reversed if getting an oscilloscope isn't an obstacle.

Amazon is dropping an oscilloscope off on my doorstep no later than 11:00 AM in the morning.

I might avoid opening up the inner fender if a millisecond-type fault is found at the connector.

 

the cam and crank hall sensors are both hall sensors and have 3 wires
1) is a ground
2) is a 5 volt power wire
3) is the sensor wire that wire gets a 5 volt reference voltage from the pcm and the hall sensor pulls that reference voltage to ground whenever there is ferrous metal near the tip of the hall sensor then when at a tone/signal ring ring window is near hall sensor tip it no longer pulls signal to ground and it returns to the 5 volt reverence voltage from the pcm

so it is normal that you found 5 volts on the signal wire as that is what the pcm provides as a reference voltage

 

Thank you for your reply.

That sort of matches what I figured out last night which is what told me to back probe the connector. I think you have 1 and 2 reversed for the ones on the van but the explanation matches my understanding.

I'm grateful for the confirmation from someone more experienced than I am.

 

PCM DIGITAL INPUTS

Hall-effect devices are frequently used for digital PCM inputs where accuracy and fast
response are important. Hall-effect devices provide the PCM with digital inputs that
do not need analog to digital conversion.
The PCM supplies 5V (NGC and JTEC) or 9V (SBEC) to the Hall-effect sensor. This
voltage powers the Hall-effect chip and the electronics in the sensor. A ground for
the sensor is provided through the sensor ground circuit. The signal to the PCM is
on a 5V reference circuit. The Hall-effect sensor contains a powerful magnet. As the
magnetic field passes over the dense portion of a counterweight, flex plate or trigger
wheel, the 5V signal is pulled low to approx. 0.3V through a transistor in the sensor.
When the magnetic field passes over the notches in the crankshaft counterweight,
flex plate or trigger wheel, the magnetic field is lost, turning OFF the transistor in the
sensor and supplying the PCM with a 5V signal.


NGC Crankshaft Position (CKP) and Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensors

The CKP and CMP sensors are Hall-effect switch inputs to the PCM. Hall-effect
devices toggle the 5V reference from the PCM ON and OFF.
Each Hall-effect switch is a three-wire sensor. One wire is the 5V power supply,
common to both CKP and CMP sensors. This feed powers the internal electronics.
Each sensor will share a common sensor ground wire. The remaining wire on each
sensor is an individual signal wire.

One of the goals of NGC is commonality among all vehicle lines. Achieving this
requires benchmarks that would be used for all applications. One example of this is
the signals generated by the CMP and CKP sensors. All vehicles, regardless of the
number of cylinders, will generate exactly the same CKP signal. The triggering
device, whether a flex plate or a tone wheel, will have a tooth or notch every 10° of
crankshaft rotation, with two missing notches and two fused notches 180º apart.

CMP sensor triggers are also benchmarked. However, four, six and eight cylinder
engines each need a specific trigger to determine cylinder location. The result is
three separate trigger patterns, specific to the number of cylinders. All four-cylinder
engines will generate the same scope pattern, all six-cylinder engines regardless
whether it is inline or “V” will generate the same pattern, and all V-8 triggers will
generate the same pattern.

NGC Crankshaft Position (CKP) and Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Diagnostics
The engine will start even if one of these two sensors fails. The PCM will eventually
sort out engine position and start the vehicle on just one of these two inputs.
However, there will be a slight delay in starting until the PCM can establish sync.
A DTC is set and the MIL will illuminate if either or both CKP and CMP signals are
not present during engine cranking.
When performing oscilloscope diagnosis, all NGC CKP sensor patterns will be
identical for all vehicles and engines. It is important that the correct components are
installed in an NGC vehicle. Flex plates or trigger wheels are not interchangeable
with parts for SBEC or JTEC applications.

 

above from attached reference which you may find useful

 

Either here in the 4th gen or in the 3rd gen someone had the darnedest time with these two sensors and even the new sensors were failures. Then it came down to the shim on the interface into the hole where the sensor sits. IIRC that was the problematic crank sensor for the 3.3L/3.8L engines. @Road Ripper and @atoman were active in that posted thread too a month back.

Makes me wonder if its the same situation here.

 

I saw that thread or another on the same subject. The CPS has a paper spacer to get the gap right and a slotted attachment to allow it to be clamped in place. The CKS doesn't and has no adjustability.

I added the Crankshaft sensor to my diagnosis because I read or saw somewhere a case where the interaction between the two sensors threw a P0344 code even though it was the crankshaft sensor that was malfunctioning.

 

I don't see a description of what's being diagnosed but if it's only P0344, it's fairly straight forward

A scope pattern is a good start, but if condition is intermittent you might not see anything unusual... (definitely check crank and starter disengagement pattern/timing/amplitude)

 

Thank you for this.

I have cleared the codes several times and they return the instant that I restart the car. There isn't time for 20 failures that would be observable, so it has to be something of the millisecond-type. I'm thinking maybe something that occurs every cam revolution. That sounds tone ring-ish. Pictures of the camshaft and the tone ring part make it look like the ring is part of the casting. Is it? If so, what could happen to it?

I think the oscilloscope will either confirm or invalidate the "per revolution" conjecture. The issue is interpreting the meaning of that result.

 

In tonight's research I'm reading about "relearn procedures" and "DRBIII reset".

Is any of that applicable to my situation?

 

We had (I remember) a member on here that his van ran poorly and was stuck roadside with his family on the way home from church one Sunday.

It went round and round and finally he removed his cam position sensor and it was all 'coked up' with carbon and oil gunk residue. He believes that was giving an errant signal and the resultant was what (similar) to what you reported.
He replaced it and Viola!

I went ahead and changed my cam position sensor prophylactically as I have a phantom rough run and eventual stall that seems to be engine temperature related. Driving hard, aggressively evading police, road raging - AND/OR days at extreme temperatures will have my engine start to stumble, low/rough idle and eventually stall. 10 minutes of rest later and it starts right back up and runs normal for a time. I found lifting the hood to allow heat to escape seems to expediate the restart time faster (cooling)?. I've used cool water to specifically cool various parts trying to detect an immediate change, to no avail.

Anyway "SteveL from area code 805", I would pop the cam position sensor and post a picture (please) Clean it off, then you'll require the SHIM. Which is previously noted as a disc of cardboard... It just so happened that a Wheaties cereal box (or similar) is the same thickness as the shim. Tear a little corner from a flap of Captain Crunch, Quaker Oats, or Old El Paso Taco kit and stick it to the tip of the probe with a schmear of grease or Vasoline. That will be used as the clearance gauge (shim, consumable) to set the probe properly.

The cam position sensor is in a position that is a little tedious to access, but it is not impossible with common hand tools (IIRC) I used a telescopic magnet to help start the mounting bolt...

Please let us know what you find and, always, report how you eventually solve this inconvenient poor engine performance issue.
You implied that you have been doing 'online research'...
How many threads did you read, just like this, where someone has a very similar fault, folks jump in and make suggestions, and then the thread just goes cold?
Jimmy fixes his wife's soccer mom mobile, he is the hero, and we are ZERO...
Myself, I've seen this happen plenty...

 

Thank you for your insights.

The CPS has already been replaced by the shady dealer's mechanic, but I have no idea what brand he used. He did that before he started messing around with computers. I know that he really did change the CPS because it is perfectly clean.

I have my doubts about whether or not he actually changed the computer or just claimed to have done so. I'll find out as soon as I get a look inside the wheel well. I would prefer it if he hadn't, as that probably introduces new problems and I doubt that he has the knowledge to have properly diagnosed it first.

I have made a couple of attempts to get a Mopar sensor, but the orders come back as backordered with no availability date. I'll swap in a high-quality part if someone can tell me which one that would be. I'll happily do the crankshaft sensor too for the "same brand, same time" confidence, since the two work so closely together.

My oscilloscope arrived a couple hours ago and, in a few minutes, I'm going to open it and read the instructions (my man card has already been voluntarily surrendered early in this diagnosis process.) I'll test the signal at the connector as soon as the sun is a bit further to the West, enabling the shade-tree to do its job. If that tests out "good", I'll open up PCM area in the wheel well and test at the connector.

 

The information provided above by Atoman has "Good trip equal to zero". How does one resolve this issue. It seems like circular reasoning to me. In order to achieve a "good trip" I would need to not have the P0344 code, but I can't get rid of that code without having already had a "good trip".

Unless I have been cast as Joseph Heller's Captain Yossarian, I'm understanding this incorrectly, as such an obvious error would have been corrected in the 20 years since that was published. What is the actual meaning of this?

 

The information provided above by Atoman has "Good trip equal to zero". How does one resolve this issue. It seems like circular reasoning to me. In order to achieve a "good trip" I would need to not have the P0344 code, but I can't get rid of that code without having already had a "good trip".

Unless I have been cast as Joseph Heller's Captain Yossarian, I'm understanding this incorrectly, as such an obvious error would have been corrected in the 20 years since that was published. What is the actual meaning of this?

You can order the OE as it's the Delphi part supplied to Chrysler.
More Information for DELPHI SS11390

And you can order the top of the line reliable aftermarket,
More Information for NTK EH0103

For the TONE wheel, a little wire brushing to remove junk caught in between each tooth is helpful. Then brake cleaner.

 

I installed an SMP (Standard Motor Products) cam position sensor. (IF I remember correctly) SMP, generally had decent stuff... (aftermarket parts)