[LPete]

As they stated in the video, there’s really no significant difference in power between plugs. I’d bet if you ran multiple tests they’d pretty much even out. What they didn’t do was index the plugs, and that CAN make a difference. Maybe some plugs were indexed better on average out of the box. I’d say from this test you can’t conclude that any of the plugs made more power.

 

[Jeepman]

There are 3 (or so) basic levels of vehicle maintenance:
1. per the Owner's Manual
2. per knowledge, experience and factual information
3. per the Dealership Service Adviser's "peace of mind" come-on

Example:
Changing OE Iridium spark plugs
1. 160,000 km/100,000 miles per Owner's Manual
2. 3000-4000 hours of engine runtime or up to 100,000 miles, or more, per Repair Smith (and others)
3. 80,000 km/50,000 miles per some Dealership's "peace of mind" strategy (to empty your wallet)

My experience, per July 24th, 2023, for the 2016 DGC Crew Plus. OE Champion 9407s replaced with 9407s :

Old spark plugs have gaps of 0.051", 0.052", 0.053", 0.053", 0.054" and 0.054". All plugs look good, the same actually, nothing to be concerned about.
186,777 km/116,058 miles, 3046 engine hours.

Fuel mileage is pretty much the same, might be smidgen better, hard to say with traffic interruptions these days.

Serpentine belt was replaced the same day, peace of mindish, old belt looks to be in very good shape. That will be its only replacement, most likely. I have heard of the OE belt lasting over 200,000 miles. Engine hours would be a factor though.

 

[Long_Voyager94]

To anecdote @Jeepman's anecdote.

Of the 6 Pentastar vehicles in our family. All have developed a mild miss at idle under load (sitting at stoplights) and a mild hiccup in the mid rpms around 50-60k miles.

Upon changing the spark plugs at that mileage, we found every plug eroded to over .060" gap. Plugs were replaced with NGK Iridium, coils were replaced with MSD or Accel.

Plugs get changed every 100k after upgrading plugs/coils and plugs are around .048" gap upon replacing.

Our experience is the factory coils are garbage at best. Champion plugs aren't suited for a lawnmower.

 

[AeroZ]

To anecdote @Jeepman's anecdote.

Of the 6 Pentastar vehicles in our family. All have developed a mild miss at idle under load (sitting at stoplights) and a mild hiccup in the mid rpms around 50-60k miles.

Upon changing the spark plugs at that mileage, we found every plug eroded to over .060" gap. Plugs were replaced with NGK Iridium, coils were replaced with MSD or Accel.

Plugs get changed every 100k after upgrading plugs/coils and plugs are around .048" gap upon replacing.

Our experience is the factory coils are garbage at best. Champion plugs aren't suited for a lawnmower.

At idle under load you mean in gear? I guess in neutral it didn't miss?

 

[Long_Voyager94]

At idle under load you mean in gear? I guess in neutral it didn't miss?

Yes, idling in gear.
In neutral/park, nothing was noticeable, but idling in gear there was a mild miss that could be felt.

Every single Pentastar we've owned has done it, usually starting around 50k miles. Any mechanic that's looked at it claims "it's normal for these motors"..... guess what... it's not, it's the subpar ignition parts causing the issue.

 

[Jeepman]

Our experience is the factory coils are garbage at best. Champion plugs aren't suited for a lawnmower.

That's a bit rash, I use nothing but NGK in my lawnmowers. 😁
Not my experience with the OE ignition. I can show you pictures of my OE 9407s. Look great, could have lasted for more kms.
You must baby your vehicles, you keep referencing poopy diapers. Ha, ha, just kidding. I don't believe you do.
Let's hear from others as to performance and longevity of the OE ignition system. Good, sound information only, no bashing please. 👍

 

[Long_Voyager94]

That's a bit rash, I use nothing but NGK in my lawnmowers. 😁
Not my experience with the OE ignition. I can show you pictures of my OE 9407s. Look great, could have lasted for more kms.
You must baby your vehicles, you keep referencing poopy diapers. Ha, ha, just kidding. I don't believe you do.
Let's hear from others as to performance and longevity of the OE ignition system. Good, sound information only, no bashing please. 👍

Might I ask how many of these engines you've owned/maintained?

My data point consists of 6 with over 1.7 million miles between them currently. Total of 10 of these over the years. Mix of abused and babied, most leaning towards abused.
Not saying right or wrong, but I've a lot of experience with these ignition systems over the years. Coils/plugs have always been the weak link, even now on the PUG version of this engine.

It IS entirely possible for one with mostly highway/gentle cruising to make it longer on plugs/coils, but even then the 100k interval is still a stretch, much like most of the intervals listed for these vans.

 

[AeroZ]

Yes, idling in gear.
In neutral/park, nothing was noticeable, but idling in gear there was a mild miss that could be felt.

Every single Pentastar we've owned has done it, usually starting around 50k miles. Any mechanic that's looked at it claims "it's normal for these motors"..... guess what... it's not, it's the subpar ignition parts causing the issue.

I think I have the same issue then but I'm not planning to replace the plugs and coils just yet. It's another $200+ to replace them all. But when I do I'm planning to go with Denso coils and NGK plugs.

 

[Special Edy]

NGK, Denso, Hitachi, or Delphi. All available for $26 or less on RockAuto. Those brands all make great ignition products.


Bogging at high load/low RPM, idle misfires, hesitation, and lower than expected mileage (16-17 city). But once it's wound up, it all clears up... aside from the mileage.

Coils are electricmagnetic, they have no moving parts or items that wear out. If they overheat from bad/overgapped spark plugs, it'll degrade the insulation on the windings. They are either failed, or not, never "worn". An ignition coil should last indefinitely unless some other component destroys it.

You're not exactly wrong on the symptoms, but this simple page should clarify some of the parameters.

Conditions that affect the discharge voltage | Spark and Ignition | Basic Knowledge | SPARK PLUG | Automotive Service Parts and Accessories | DENSO Global Website

An explanation of the mechanism of producing a strong spark between terminals to cause combustion of the air-fuel mixture.

www.denso.com

 

[Long_Voyager94]

Coils are electricmagnetic, they have no moving parts or items that wear out. If they overheat from bad/overgapped spark plugs, it'll degrade the insulation on the windings. They are either failed, or not, never "worn". An ignition coil should last indefinitely unless some other component destroys it.

You're not exactly wrong on the symptoms, but this simple page should clarify some of the parameters.

Conditions that affect the discharge voltage | Spark and Ignition | Basic Knowledge | SPARK PLUG | Automotive Service Parts and Accessories | DENSO Global Website

An explanation of the mechanism of producing a strong spark between terminals to cause combustion of the air-fuel mixture.

www.denso.com

How much degradation needs to happen between failed and not failed?
Wouldn't a degraded coil that still works but fails to produce as much spark as a good coil be considered worn?

 

[2019GTlife]

Now we’re getting some info!!!

I have always considered electronic parts to be on the verge of failing, even when new.

So if it would be the plug gap that stresses the coil is there a way to check the plug without actually taking it out. I remember years age we used a Sun machine to tune up cars, and you could see the electric heartbeat of when the plug fires. I wonder if you could estimate the gap from that?

 

[Special Edy]

How much degradation needs to happen between failed and not failed?
Wouldn't a degraded coil that still works but fails to produce as much spark as a good coil be considered worn?

If the insulation has melted on the copper winding, the coil is internally shorted out. Sometimes the copper wire will burn and you'll have an open circuit, with infinite resistance, and it won't supply any spark. But quite often, coils short through layers of insulation, have a lower than specified resistance, and don't produce enough output voltage.

It's physically damaged, not worn. If your engine drops a valve or throws a rod, it will still run without that cylinder if you clear the debris, but you wouldn't call a V6 with 5 pistons left worn, you'd call it damaged. Losing insulation in the coil is equivalent to losing pistons in an engine: still works to some degree, but it has nonetheless suffered catastrophic damage.

Worn implies wear, and ignition coils don't wear out. They fail when they're abused. Too much dwell, bad wires, too much gap, overheating, or being disconnected from the spark plug while the engine is running.

 

[Special Edy]

Now we’re getting some info!!!

I have always considered electronic parts to be on the verge of failing, even when new.

So if it would be the plug gap that stresses the coil is there a way to check the plug without actually taking it out. I remember years age we used a Sun machine to tune up cars, and you could see the electric heartbeat of when the plug fires. I wonder if you could estimate the gap from that?

You need an oscilloscope and two different voltage divider circuits. Then you can see the charging current under dwell and the discharge voltage.

There are videos on YouTube benchtop testing ignition coils for dwell.

Alternatively, a normal mechanic can measure the primary and secondary resistance of the coil to get a very rough idea of it's health. Or, you can check the temperatures, a bad coil or plug/wire/coil combo would result in one coil running very hot.

 

[Turbo84]

Claims about short lived chrysler coils do not match my experience
Current vehicle experience I have had

1992 YJ 200k miles still original coil
2004 turbo PT cruiser 160k miles still original coil pack
2004 rubicon TJ 80k miles still original coil rail
1998 TJ sport 45k miles still original coil
1993 4.0 ZJ 74k miles still original coil
2012 town and country 190k miles no coils changed

just anecdotal but as valid as yours

agree coils and coil packs not a wear item and oem survived well for me even under hot turbocharged engine environment

 

[Jeepman]

Claims about short lived chrysler coils do not match my experience
Current vehicle experience I have had

1992 YJ 200k miles still original coil
2004 turbo PT cruiser 160k miles still original coil pack
2004 rubicon TJ 80k miles still original coil rail
1998 TJ sport 45k miles still original coil
1993 4.0 ZJ 74k miles still original coil
2012 town and country 190k miles no coils changed

just anecdotal but as valid as yours

agree coils and coil packs not a wear item and oem survived well for me even under hot turbocharged engine environment

Yes, much to do about nothing when it comes to coils, and wires too for that matter. Most are replaced long before their time, for many non valid reasons. Coils and wires on my Jeep are original OE. I have NGK plugs in it, if I have a problem I will blame it on them. Just kidding, both Champion and NGK copper plugs have worked the same in the Jeep. Both are specified in the Owner's Manual/emissions label. Chrysler sometimes specifies two different brands, if both will perform the same, similar to Honda specifying Denso and NGK for CRVs. Go with the "no brainer" OE. Anything else is an experiment.

The last coil I replaced was on a 1987 Plymouth Voyager (RIP) and that was a failure after many thousands of miles, a single coil did all the work back then. A friend of mind had a coil go bad, out of the blue, a year or two ago, on a 2004 Acura TSX with about 115,000 miles on it. Only that coil was replaced. Vehicle works fine with near 200,000 km on it. That would have been a Denso or NGK coil.

All that glitters isn't gold:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/3-6-pentastar-plug-suggestions.335756/#post-5620675

I've since decided to run OEM plugs on all of my engines, regardless of the manufacturer. I just don't think there is anything to gain over what the design engineers specified. But especially with Chrysler products.

Beware of NGK Iridium spark plugs, besides their measly 60 day warranty, they come in different models, one with a "lifetime" shorter than double platinum:

More Information for NGK 93175

Your Pentastar Engine was designed by Engineers that should know best. Choosing the spark plugs wasn't willy-nilly. Here's one named Kevin who worked on the design and comments accordingly:

626,000 mile Pentastar teardown

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34672...ysler-pentastar-v6-is-after-626000-miles Looks like the internals were in good shape except for the timing chains and tensioners. My question is would these timing chains have lasted longer with thicker oils?

bobistheoilguy.com

Another Post on that Thread. Note the comment about oil viscosity.

626,000 mile Pentastar teardown

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34672...ysler-pentastar-v6-is-after-626000-miles Looks like the internals were in good shape except for the timing chains and tensioners. My question is would these timing chains have lasted longer with thicker oils?

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Long_Voyager94]

Claims about short lived chrysler coils do not match my experience
Current vehicle experience I have had

1992 YJ 200k miles still original coil
2004 turbo PT cruiser 160k miles still original coil pack
2004 rubicon TJ 80k miles still original coil rail
1998 TJ sport 45k miles still original coil
1993 4.0 ZJ 74k miles still original coil
2012 town and country 190k miles no coils changed

just anecdotal but as valid as yours

agree coils and coil packs not a wear item and oem survived well for me even under hot turbocharged engine environment

So, exactly one Pentastar for evidence.....
Oddly enough, Chrysler USED to use quality coils that weren't troublesome, that was prior to the Pentastar engine. Good to hear you got lucky on yours though.

@Jeepman As far as plug/coil choice goes, remember the proper choice will always get nixed by the bean counters for a cheaper option.
Same reason you complain of the "cheap plastic" all over the engine bay.
Assuming the OEM uses the best quality part for the application is just willful ignorance.

 

[Jeepman]

So, exactly one Pentastar for evidence.....
Oddly enough, Chrysler USED to use quality coils that weren't troublesome, that was prior to the Pentastar engine. Good to hear you got lucky on yours though.

@Jeepman As far as plug/coil choice goes, remember the proper choice will always get nixed by the bean counters for a cheaper option.
Same reason you complain of the "cheap plastic" all over the engine bay.
Assuming the OEM uses the best quality part for the application is just willful ignorance.

Sometimes the Engineers are overruled by the beancounters and environmentalist (plastic parts, low viscosity oils) to the detriment of durability, but I don't see them short changing the ignition system components, hence sacrificing fuel economy and performance numbers.

 

[Long_Voyager94]

Sometimes the Engineers are overruled by the beancounters and environmentalist (plastic parts, low viscosity oils) but I don't see them short changing the ignition system components, hence sacrificing fuel economy and performance numbers.

They'll make it through warranty, that's all they care.
If you really believe they're using the best quality components, I have a wonderful piece of ocean front property here in WI for you too!

 

[Jeepman]

They'll make it through warranty, that's all they care.
If you really believe they're using the best quality components, I have a wonderful piece of ocean front property here in WI for you too!

Ha, ha, don't you wish.

 

[Turbo84]

So, exactly one Pentastar for evidence.....
Oddly enough, Chrysler USED to use quality coils that weren't troublesome, that was prior to the Pentastar engine. Good to hear you got lucky on yours though.

@Jeepman As far as plug/coil choice goes, remember the proper choice will always get nixed by the bean counters for a cheaper option.
Same reason you complain of the "cheap plastic" all over the engine bay.
Assuming the OEM uses the best quality part for the application is just willful ignorance.

Never cared much for the V6 engine design too poor a balance basic design that got chosen because of size and and ability to mount wit crank frant to back or side to side economy of multi platform use over ideal individual design

Back in my undergrad engineering training they made it clear that straight six was the only inherently balanced design for both primary and secondary shaking force and rocking couple

No wonder so may of the most long living engines are straight sixes

my home collection includes 3 AMC/Jeep 4.0 straight six and one 280ZXT straight six because I am getting too old to fart around with crappy bean counter engine layout
Still hoping to add a Ford 300/4.9 another legendary straight six design

my pentastar experience is limited to one driven by my nephew - not an engine I would want to own but high miles with original coils