The Chrysler Minivan Fan Club Forums banner
41 - 60 of 76 Posts

·
3rd Gen Plebeian
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager Rallye
Joined
·
1,434 Posts
If I read correctly, after a few seconds, the ASD relay cuts power. Sounds like something I have read the SKIM security system does if it doesn't recognize the key. We have SKIM on our 2002 T&C. People say if the SKIM fails, best bet is to get a non-SKIM PCM from the junkyard. There is a red Security lamp in the upper dash display. Do you know if the donor had SKIM?
If the SKREES was the culprit, the engine wouldnt crank.




SENTRY KEY REMOTE ENTRY SYSTEM
The Sentry Key Remote Entry System (SKREES) is available as a factory-installed option on this vehicle. It is designed to provide passive protection against unauthorized vehicle use by disabling the engine, after two (2) seconds of running, whenever an invalid key is used to start the vehicle. The SKIS is active whenever the ignition is on and does not require any customer intervention. The primary components of the system are the Sentry Key Remote Entry Module (SKREEM), Sentry Key (integrated key with tranponder and RKE on a circuit board), indicator light, Body Control Module (BCM), and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The SKREEM is mounted to the steering column with the molded, integral antenna mounted on the ignition housing. The indicator light, is located in the Mechanical Instrument Cluster (MIC).

OPERATION VEHICLE THEFT SECURITY SYSTEM
Upon failure of proper Sentry Key Remote Entry Module (SKREEM) communication to the PCM, the PCM will shut off fuel after two seconds of run time. The engine will not re-crank on the key cycle that the failure occurred, a full key down sequence must be performed for the engine to crank again. After six consecutive fuel shut-offs, the engine will no longer crank on subsequent key cycles. The failure must be corrected and a valid communication process between the SKREEM and the PCM must occur for the engine to crank and start again
 

·
Registered
2013 Dodge Grand Caravan
Joined
·
4,871 Posts
Security isn't the issue. Issue is no spark. Security cuts fuel. On some (rare, modern European) vehicles it cuts spark as well, but not this one.

Are you certain cam and crank sensors are good? From the info I posted a few days ago, those are most likely the issue, assuming all wiring is good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Special Edy

·
3rd Gen Plebeian
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager Rallye
Joined
·
1,434 Posts
Security isn't the issue. Issue is no spark. Security cuts fuel. On some (rare, modern European) vehicles it cuts spark as well, but not this one.

Are you certain cam and crank sensors are good? From the info I posted a few days ago, those are most likely the issue, assuming all wiring is good.
It almost certainly is a fault with cam or crank signal, or the PCM.

Too bad you don't have an oscilloscope.

One of the sensors will throw a normal fault code, the camshaft IIRC, but the crank sensor throws a code without a CEL, that's only visible with a DRB3, IIRC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Road Ripper

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #45 ·
It almost certainly is a fault with cam or crank signal, or the PCM.

Too bad you don't have an oscilloscope.

One of the sensors will throw a normal fault code, the camshaft IIRC, but the crank sensor throws a code without a CEL, that's only visible with a DRB3, IIRC.
During voltage tests, while cranking both cam and crank sensors showed good pulse/timing spikes. Had a good 8*volt and 5-volt reference. I am really beginning I may have sent a spark into the pcm while cutting the dash wires out.
 

·
Registered
2013 Dodge Grand Caravan
Joined
·
4,871 Posts
Unless you cut them while live, cut multiple wires at once, or didn't tape an end that made contact with ground or another wire... I don't see how disconnecting circuits in the dash would kill the PCM. How much cutting did you do exactly? The pic you posted on the first page barely even shows any wires in it.

A pulse doesn't necessarily mean a good sensor. The pulse can be different from what the PCM is looking for and it will ignore it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Special Edy

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I did not think of protecting the pcm as I removed wires. I am thinking maybe under dash wires could have touched other cut ends or went to ground. Thinking about it now there was a blown iod fuse and may be an acc fuse. The project had to sit all summer as life got in the way. So I don't remember the details. I am going to see about attaching a few pics of the left side.
61143
Motor vehicle Hood Automotive exterior Engineering Gas
61144
61145
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #48 ·
The motor ran fine last spring after the back of the van had been removed. As I removed each section the system was started and ran for a bit to be sure it was ok. Then it didn't. I did not even remember having to replace that fuse until tonight. Hindsight I should have disconnected the battery and pcm while cutting circuits out. I do have access to equipment from a friend who worked for local dodge dealership. Time will tell.
Unless you cut them while live, cut multiple wires at once, or didn't tape an end that made contact with ground or another wire... I don't see how disconnecting circuits in the dash would kill the PCM. How much cutting did you do exactly? The pic you posted on the first page barely even shows any wires in it.

A pulse doesn't necessarily mean a good sensor. The pulse can be different from what the PCM is looking for and it will ignore it.
You have sent me a lot of good paperwork. I am wondering if you would have access to details about the body control module.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Diagrams for both.
Very interesting layout on these print outs. Each pinout refers to a system. IE instrument cluster system, memory system, etc. This is a first for me working this detailed into how the computers we drive actually work. I now have to ask is there documentation that would define each system and its connections? Also schematic diagrams of the different modules and systems. I know I sound needy but I find this very interesting. I thought I had a deep understanding of how this worked but, now find I was at best 50% of what I needed to know. Close to 50 years now working with electronics. Military training in communications hardware. 35 years with computer hardware and a pastime of doing all my own auto/motorcycle work. The more data you send me sir the deeper my understanding and need to learn more of the auto/computer systems. Not sure if you understand my thoughts on this. If there is "any" information you may have that I may be able to use to increase my knowledge, please send it I will be most grateful.
 

·
Registered
2013 Dodge Grand Caravan
Joined
·
4,871 Posts
Seeing as you're running essentially a stripped chassis, what systems do you actually need? Most BCM connected systems are for interior functions. Aside from ignition power and immobilizer, none deal with engine management.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Seeing as you're running essentially a stripped chassis, what systems do you actually need? Most BCM connected systems are for interior functions. Aside from ignition power and immobilizer, none deal with engine management.
I have still not found the reason instrument cluster and turn signals do not power up. Also thinking about how I might use the bcm to do other functions. Although I would love to just cut that whole system out. I guess all I really need is hoy to bypass most of it and go to basic functions. I am thinking about how to route the BCM functions thru simple relays and switches. The word system doesn't help much with that without knowing what the wires for the system come from and what it does in relation to whatever active component. I did order new cam and crank sensors just in case. I hate being a part switcher :)
 

·
Registered
2013 Dodge Grand Caravan
Joined
·
4,871 Posts
Unless you delete security from the PCM, I don't think a complete BCM removal is possible. BCM is part of the security handshake. Most other functions can be bypassed though. It will take studying of the diagrams for the system in question and converting the circuits to standard relays. Thankfully Dodge took care of that part when I wired in my external fuel pump relay. :p

I'll dig those up later. Son's birthday today... about to go do stuff with him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Unless you delete security from the PCM, I don't think a complete BCM removal is possible. BCM is part of the security handshake. Most other functions can be bypassed though. It will take studying of the diagrams for the system in question and converting the circuits to standard relays. Thankfully Dodge took care of that part when I wired in my external fuel pump relay. :p

I'll dig those up later. Son's birthday today... about to go do stuff with him.
Thanks again for all the help sienile. The fuel pump isn't really an issue. I am more concerned with whatever security needs and keeping the system running. On a positive note, my friend came over to look things over this afternoon. He thought the pcm was at fault. He went back home and brought 3 used pcm over. One matched the plug color on mine. We installed it and checked to make sure things were poured in all over. It fired on first turn over then died. Security doesn't match but it is positive news. Not sure what is involved in getting things matched or bypassed with the key.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Unless you delete security from the PCM, I don't think a complete BCM removal is possible. BCM is part of the security handshake. Most other functions can be bypassed though. It will take studying of the diagrams for the system in question and converting the circuits to standard relays. Thankfully Dodge took care of that part when I wired in my external fuel pump relay. :p

I'll dig those up later. Son's birthday today... about to go do stuff with him.
Tell the young man I said happy birthday. I have 2 grandsons birthdays this week, 19 and 17.
 

·
Registered
2013 Dodge Grand Caravan
Joined
·
4,871 Posts
Got a while before grandkids. This is my oldest and he's 10. Just gave him "the talk" a few weeks ago, a lot earlier than I expected to have to. But I did throw in there "I better not have grandkids until you're about 30." :p

Couldn't find pretty color diagrams for the head and fog lights, but I included the OE black and whites and attached the schematic diagrams of both interior and exterior light circuits to the end of them.

Signal lights, cluster, and wipers (you didn't mention, but figured you might want them too) circuits are all in color.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Got a while before grandkids. This is my oldest and he's 10. Just gave him "the talk" a few weeks ago, a lot earlier than I expected to have to. But I did throw in there "I better not have grandkids until you're about 30." :p

Couldn't find pretty color diagrams for the head and fog lights, but I included the OE black and whites and attached the schematic diagrams of both interior and exterior light circuits to the end of them.

Signal lights, cluster, and wipers (you didn't mention, but figured you might want them too) circuits are all in color.
Wow, you must have a good connection for these files.
I ordered a reflashed pcm today. From what I have read If I remove the skim unit before installing the pcm I should be able to keep the ignition free from the factory switch setup. That should make the removal of a few unwanted wires. The pcm my friend brought over let the motor start for a few seconds. Replaced the battery today with a new one. Now it seems the trial pcm has locked my key out. No cranking. Swapped the old pcm in and got the same crank no start. Repeat do it again, same issues with both pcms. That's when I made the choice of the new computer, 3 to 8 days for delivery. Hoping the cluster will respond to the new unit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Got a while before grandkids. This is my oldest and he's 10. Just gave him "the talk" a few weeks ago, a lot earlier than I expected to have to. But I did throw in there "I better not have grandkids until you're about 30." :p

Couldn't find pretty color diagrams for the head and fog lights, but I included the OE black and whites and attached the schematic diagrams of both interior and exterior light circuits to the end of them.

Signal lights, cluster, and wipers (you didn't mention, but figured you might want them too) circuits are all in color.
I hate to sound needy but, while waiting for pcm to arrive I am looking into other reasons for the failure. I am looking into the vtss. I believe it is possible that with much of that system now missing the system is locking out the ignition. The manual includes block diagrams but lacks schematics. I am hoping you may have access to those schematics. Thinking I may have to build a security box to do the door lock seatbelt ignition key sequence. Thanks again for all the help.
 

·
Registered
2013 Dodge Grand Caravan
Joined
·
4,871 Posts
Anti-theft isn't one of those things they like to give full schematics for. Won't find any internal module wiring on these either. Most of these switches can be bypassed with simple jumpers to ground.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: Ed Littell
41 - 60 of 76 Posts
Top