The Chrysler Minivan Fan Club Forums banner

21 - 40 of 66 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,350 Posts
I always forget to chew my corn. It makes for some amusement later.
I'm not sure but I have heard bad things about corn fuel. They might be fake for all I know so don'r flame me if they're wrong:

It has less energy than gasoline so you need more of it to travel a mile, meaning less mpg, than you do gasoline, and it costs more per gallon. So why would anyone want to do this in their driving?

I don't know if it pollutes less than gasoline, only pollutes differently? reduces our dependency on finite fossil resources and allows them to last longer before running out, which I guess is good, but overall the making of corn fuel carries a large carbon footprint thanks to all the rainforest clearcutting required and the indirect effect on worldwide food costs.

Don't know the specifics of how, but the use of this stuff only serves to further enrich(which is why it was conceived) the richest few families in the world, who control ALL of the money. Like the Rothchilds who have for a few centuries control the banking system and print our cash for profit.

Add any more problems you know of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,072 Posts
Yes, it does have less energy content so it lowers your mpg.

From a true economic standpoint, ethanol is a total joke. The stuff has to be highly subsidized by the govt to compete. It's supposed to burn cleaner but it also attracts water so it seems for every positive, there are equal negatives.

I see signs along the road in Missouri talking about how the corn fields are Missouri's oil fields. I just roll my eyes because if you think about it, you can't even plant corn without oil. The idea that somehow Ethanol replaces oil is just ridiculous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,072 Posts
Well, you can actually. Just takes lots more man power and a set of oxen lol.
True, I should have been more clear!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,350 Posts
Oh you know what else I forgot to mention?
How many million square miles of rainforest will we need to clearcut to grow enough corn to put a dent in fossil fuel consumption? Answer: more square miles than there are square miles of rainforest. You could turn all the farms in North America into corn farms and we would still need oil. Then on top of that, there would be no food for any of us.
A corporation is by definition a psychopath. To be diagnosed, a person needs to meet 8 out of 10 criteria. The corporation meets all 10. They control the government agencies(FDA, CDC, EPA, AMA, APA, ADA, etc) that are supposed to regulate them, so they are allowed to market drugs and food that harm us, all in the name of profit. They literally don't care if they kill people or destroy the earth, which in turn kills us all. Profit is the only goal.
 
T

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
The problem with ethanol is that the existing plants are dependent on corn. Whether it is food corn or not, it jacks up the cost of food source corn. Even if it is feed corn, it will effect other foods such as chicken, beef, or pork.
This state in particular has given way too much in subsidies and special rules regarding their plants as it is. I can honestly say that I will never be an ethanol backer.
+1 here. We need to continue looking for a better solution.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
1,469 Posts
1. The ethanol industry is asking congress not to renew subsidies. It can stand on it's own. The only one we all support is the $0.45 per gallong tarriff on Brazilian Ethanol.

2. I am not from Missouri.

3. The amount of corn in your food, as compared to the price of oil to move it is why food prices have gone up. There is less than $0.05 of corn in a box of corn flakes. Oil prices due to transportation and production have caused spikes.

4. Rainforest clearing and Ethanol are not related. Additional acres were found by plowing up pastureland in the cattle producing areas of South America.

5. My chart below is from my 07 Chevy Silverado. yes, it is a tough read as the format did not stay in place.


Data
Fuel Average of Miles/Gallon Average of Cost/Mile Sum of Miles
87 16.0 0.19 3580.4
E10 15.3 0.18 22103.3
E85 13.1 0.17 38960.3
Mix 13.8 0.18 11485.7
E40 13.6 0.12 1617.0
E20 16.9 0.14 555.0
Grand Total 13.9 0.17 78301.7
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
I live in Middleton (suburb of Madison) and purchase gas from a station less than a mile from me that sells both E10 and 100% gas 87 octane.

Keep in mind in IA, as well as much of WI and MN, the source for the ethanol is much closer, hence less cost in shipping the product to the pumps.
I had to laugh at the close to the pump quote here... When I lived in northern CA the most expensive gas you could find was the ones around the corner from where the gas delivery trucks filled up from the refineries...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
1. The ethanol industry is asking congress not to renew subsidies. It can stand on it's own. The only one we all support is the $0.45 per gallon tariff on Brazilian Ethanol.

What? Are you serious? Farmers ARE heavily subsidized for corn they produce that goes to Ethanol, the subsidies you are talking about are the ones given to the producers of ethanol.

3. The amount of corn in your food, as compared to the price of oil to move it is why food prices have gone up. There is less than $0.05 of corn in a box of corn flakes. Oil prices due to transportation and production have caused spikes.

Gas prices have gone up because of Ethanol and the idiotic green movement that is pushing it, some of the outrageous gas tax goes towards ethanol production, also, oil exploration has been practically halted because of the green movement relying on ethanol to fuel America.

4. Rainforest clearing and Ethanol are not related. Additional acres were found by plowing up pastureland in the cattle producing areas of South America.

The point was obviously missed by you, The rain-forest comments were clearly in reference to the amount of land that would be needed to "put a dent" in oil usage.
Ethanol is an unsustainable source of fuel that is overpriced, and under-performing. It is causing food prices to go up due to the land and resources it is taking away from food "production" It uses 10 gallons of water to produce one gallon, it uses massive amounts of electricity, and it subsidizes farmers. Our tax dollars are supporting this wasteful, defunct fuel source, and really, I will be happy to see it go.

As far as auto damage, obviously water absorption is an issue, also, in vehicles not designed to run E85, damage can occur to seals and gaskets. I have never used this fuel, and as long as I have a choice, never will.
 

·
PT Driver
Joined
·
2,674 Posts
Ethanol is an unsustainable source of fuel that is overpriced, and under-performing. It is causing food prices to go up due to the land and resources it is taking away from food "production" It uses 10 gallons of water to produce one gallon, it uses massive amounts of electricity, and it subsidizes farmers. Our tax dollars are supporting this wasteful, defunct fuel source, and really, I will be happy to see it go.

As far as auto damage, obviously water absorption is an issue, also, in vehicles not designed to run E85, damage can occur to seals and gaskets. I have never used this fuel, and as long as I have a choice, never will.
While I mostly agree with what you have said, one thing I can't agree on totally is, the price. at least what we pay at the pumps, at one point I had seen it a whole dollar less then regular gas, of course this was a month or two ago.

I have used E-85 before at work, and really I don't see good from it, your using corn to make a gas that isn't as good as regular gas, I've noted at best a 1 mpg drop from regular gas, but also a reduction in power from the vehicle. To me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, its one thing that the benefits DO NOT out weight the costs.

and as for gas prices going up because of ethanol and the ecomentalists, pretty sure thats not the case, more like the gas companies feeling the need to charge more when something rather minor happens, of course now that its becoming nicer out the gas prices are going up again, and I'm sure the gas companies are going to say because demand is up, which I'm not entirely sure... of course seeing as I put gas in my personal car about once a month, and the vehicles I drive at work go to a private station to fill up. I really couldn't say for sure if its up, down, or static.

I never saw E-85 at the "fuel of the future" myself. I think hydrogen is the way to go, though there are some hurdles to jump I admit.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,203 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
The lower price of ethanol is due to subsidies. Without those it would be as much as gasoline or more.

I am not a fan of hydrogen as it is very unstable. There are large users of hydrogen, but any leak is serious.
 

·
MOPAR Parts & Service Pro
Joined
·
3,052 Posts
There is one thing I do not understand... why in the world can't an engine run on water. Ok I don't mean really mean water, but the chemical elements of water... hydrogen and oxygen. Both are very flammable. I do not understand why someone can't come up with a little unit that sets on top of your engine, splits the water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then feeds the engine hydrogen and oxygen. It can't be that hard to come up with...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,109 Posts
There is one thing I do not understand... why in the world can't an engine run on water. Ok I don't mean really mean water, but the chemical elements of water... hydrogen and oxygen. Both are very flammable. I do not understand why someone can't come up with a little unit that sets on top of your engine, splits the water into hydrogen and oxygen, and then feeds the engine hydrogen and oxygen. It can't be that hard to come up with...
I've played in this a bit. The energy required to split the water is quite a lot. As there is no such thing as free energy, the engine couldn't produce enough power to split enough water to run and power the vehicle.
 

·
PT Driver
Joined
·
2,674 Posts
I've played in this a bit. The energy required to split the water is quite a lot. As there is no such thing as free energy, the engine couldn't produce enough power to split enough water to run and power the vehicle.
Couldn't have said it better myself. though I've heard that there are supposed ways that it will work using the correct power, and having it pulsate instead of being constant.

There is already a hydrogen hybrid car running around in california, the FCX Clarity. And as for being unstable, I don't really see that as true, there are truckers using it to help improve their fuel economy, and like I said before the FCX Clarity runs on hydrogen.

As I see it hydrogen is just better then gas, full circle. we pretty much of a limitless supply of it, when its combusted all that really comes out the tail pipe is water, and its about 5 times more explosive then gas (of that one can be looked at both ways), which would mean less needed to power a vehicle. All we really need to figure out is a safe way to store it in a vehicle (maybe like a resealable tank or something). Of course when the gas engine first came out there were nay sayers about that, saying how explosive gas is when truth is you can light a match stick it into a gallon of gas and the match will just burn out.

And not to take this thread OT anymore. I didn't realize that E-85's price was so low because of subsidies. If the price goes up, there basically goes E-85's demand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
E-85 is basically for people who are concerned with "renewables" that *love* getting gas. Seriously, I ran a couple tanks through and got 15 mpg. Getting over 21 now on normal 87.

What we need are those little European diesels that get 50+ mpg. I'd gladly pay $4.50/gal if each one got me 50 miles!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,109 Posts
\What we need are those little European diesels that get 50+ mpg. I'd gladly pay $4.50/gal if each one got me 50 miles!
X2. What if half our cars ont eh road were like the VW diesel Polo? That thing would be an amazing vehicle, cheap and amazing fuel economy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
I use E85 because it costs less per mile here for me. The price spread is about $1 here and my mpg difference is 3mpg. Not much of a range issue considering the grand cherokee has a 24 gallon tank. I'm not saying that E85 is a godsend, is the alternative fuel of the future, or will replace gasoline; it's just nice to have a choice here. Especially if gas keeps climbing the way it does. The problem I see, though, is that a lot of stations around here raise e85 10 cents when gas goes up 10 cents around here. It's a shame that they push E10 to the public, because that ratio is not good for fuel economy. E20 to E30 has been to shown about the same mpg as straight gasoline.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
Ok..., time for a little sanity and a few facts.

The reason that all of the Midwest states, (the corn belt), require that gasoline contain at least 10% ethanol is the large contributions to politicians, made by companies such as Archer-Daniels-Midland and others who don't grow the corn, but who make the ethanol. They squeeze the farmer on price on one end and push up the price to the consumer on the other. Our congress-critters respond to one thing only...., MONEY..., and they listen carefully to those who give them lots of it. Why do you think the laws that require gasoline to contain at least 10% ethanol in the Midwest all require that that ethanol be made from corn. To be honest, though, the oxygenation of gasoline fuel does help the environment, at least in the short term.

From an energy standpoint, it doesn't make sense to burn alcohol in your car except for the fact that it oxygenates the fuel and cleans the exhaust a little. You make more CO2 and less CO and it lowers the combustion temps a little so you make less oxides of nitrogen, NOX. HOWEVER..., if you want alcohol, whether it be ethanol or methanol, the cheapest way to make it is from oil at an oil refinery. That's why there have to be government subsidies to make ethanol economically feasible. I know..., I know..., the pushers of ethanol, (ADM, et al), can provide you with reams of data showing that it makes economic sense, but it all comes from research reports that they subsidize and initiate. I work in the industry. Believe me..., the energy balance in making ethanol from corn is not good. You put in a lot more energy making it than you save from burning it in your car instead of pure gasoline!

Hydrogen makes an excellent auto fuel. The problems are storage and a new distribution system. You have to store it at high pressure in your car, but the engineering problems are relatively minor. You use a metal hydride 'sponge' in the fuel tank and it stores the hydrogen and only releases it at a slow rate. You can put a rifle bullet through the tank and all you'll get is a slow leak. No big boom and fireball! The distribution system for gasoline took decades to build. To replace all of that with something new and to educate the population on how to refuel their cars would be a formidable problem, but it's solvable. All that comes out the tailpipe is water, and you don't have the pollution problems you do with gasoline. If you're willing to pay for the electricity, you can put in a hydrogen generator in your house that splits water into hydrogen and oxygen and compresses the hydrogen into a storage tank. The cost, (electricity), will be quite a bit higher than gasoline right now, and the initial cost of the unit is high.

One thing that we overlook is that gasoline is an excellent form in which to store energy! When you break the carbon-hydrogen and carbon-carbon bonds in gasoline and the resulting carbon and hydrogen atoms react with oxygen, releases a lot of energy. Hydrogen combustion is very clean, but the energy content per unit of mass is less, even less than with alcohol. You'd need a system in your car that can contain the high pressures safely. It's not all that difficult! It's just an engineering problem that could be solved. Gasoline is actually a rather dangerous substance to be carrying around all the time, but in the past century, we've learned how to handle it. As for carrying around a unit that would break up water into it's constituent components, it takes a lot more energy to break that bond than you'd get out of burning it later. When you burn hydrocarbons in your car, the splitting of the carbon and hydrogen bonds is endothermic, (look it up on wikipedia), but the oxidation reaction of the hydrogen and carbon recombining with oxygen is even more exothermic, (wikipedia again), and the net energy release is what makes your car go. If you want to split hydrogen and oxygen apart, you need a large source of energy such as a nuclear power plant or a wind farm or hydro-power, that uses energy that's been stored by nature for millions of years.

One of the worst ideas that's floating around now is the idea of running our cars on natural gas, (methane)! You still have all the problems of greenhouse gas, (CO2), and all you'd do is drive up the price of heating your house as the supply of natural gas would be split among heating and running your car. I know we are supposed to have a lot of natural gas in this country, but much of it would be very expensive to get out of the ground, and it's not all that pure when it does come to the surface. It's usually got a lot of sulfur in it and it would cost a fair amount to clean it up enough to burn in your car cleanly. Some of it is clean, but to extend the amount we use for heating to cover burning in our cars, would require us to start tapping into some expensive and dirty sources. After all of this, you'd still have the same problems of storage and dispensing as you would with hydrogen. The natural gas that comes into your house does so at a pressure of only a small fraction of one psig. To store enough in your car to be useful would require pressurizing it to at least 2500-3000 psig, about the same as hydrogen.

Science marches on..., but at the current state of the art, and given the political and economic realities of the moment, gasoline looks to be the main fuel for the foreseeable future. Hydrogen makes the most sense in the near term, and some form of stored electric power is really the answer in the long run.
 
21 - 40 of 66 Posts
Top