Yikes! Sounds like you encountered several anomalies with your brake bleed.

The picture looks like new/fresh brake fluid. I'd be happy with that. Just can't imagine pumping with hands and feet 1000x. How many quarts of brake fluid did you go through? Maybe you're overthinking it, but I would think about 15-20 pumps for the rears and 8-10 pumps for the fronts should suffice for a complete flush. I have never used Speed Bleeder but have had an assistant to pump the brake pedal.

I don't have any suggestion for your engine starting problem after bleeding. However I would be very concerned with your reservoir fluid level dropping indicating a leak or air in your brake system. With engine off, pump brake pedal a few times to purge the vacuum boost. At this point your brake pedal should be very firm. If the pedal goes down under pressure, it's indicating you either have air in your brake line or you have a leak. Check all four bleeder screws to make sure they are snug and not weeping.

Good luck.
Woof

 

...I literally pumped the brake pedal a thousand times

Brakes have nothing to do with engine operation unless you damaged the booster with all that pumping (vacuum leak).

Like woofpack said, 15 pumps (not a thousand) should be more than enough to purge right rear line.

 

Brakes have nothing to do with engine operation unless you damaged the booster with all that pumping (vacuum leak).

Like woofpack said, 15 pumps (not a thousand) should be more than enough to purge right rear line.

That might be possible.

Where is that booster?

This morning, I checked the brake fluid level in the master cylinder. It dropped about 1 mm below the half way mark.

I first I could NOT determine the fluid level, because I could NOT believe that it could have dropped that low!

So I filled it up again!

Then after I parked the car, I sorta laid on the ground with a flash light to see if there is any weeping or leaking around the speed bleeder screws.

All four were dry! And the rubber dust caps were on!

Maybe I could jack up the vehicle, remove the dust caps of the bleeder screws to have a careful look see.

I used one full 32 ounce Prestone DOT 3 synthetic brake fluid and little more from the second bottle for the flushing.

I could swear that after 15 pumps, the brake fluid looked still grimy. Too dirty to be acceptable.

When I was pumping the brake pedal to bleed the last corner--front left, suddenly, the pedal dropped to the floor. It went further to the floor. Was that a sign the brake booster was broken?

Was that also the reason why I could not start the motor the first three times?

Looks like I should look at the FSM to see where the brake booster is and how to fix it, if broken.

Thanks very much again for the inputs, guys!

 

3. I filled up the master cylinder last night. When I got up this morning, however, the level was a little low. So I added a little. Then after I drove about 40 miles on the freeway and stopped at a parking lot, I found the level to be a little low again, and I added a little more.

Does this sound normal? The brake fluid, after a complete re-flush, takes time to settle into all the spots??

I will check the fluid level in the master cylinder again tomorrow morning.

And thank you very much in advance for reading this and providing help! :thumb:

No, is not normal at all. After you properly bleed the system, it should not be any empty spots for the fluid to settle.

 

Did a little research on the power brake booster that Steve mentioned. Now I know where it is located.

It looks like I have broken something in the braking system with that many pumpings of the brake pedal!

I wanted to see the clear fluid! :biggrin:

Could I have broken a seal in the master cylinder or in the power brake booster?

I checked where the master cylinder meets the brake booster with a flashlight, but did not find any weeping or leaking sign.

And, as I said, this morning, I laid on the ground and checked the four bleeder screws. Did not find any weeping or leaking signs there either with all four of the bleeder screws.

What are some possible places where a seal or something could be broken, causing the brake fluid to leak?

If the power brake booster or the master cylinder is broken and needs to be replaced, they aren't cheap, especially the power brake booster. I just took a look at RockAuto.

Thanks very much again for the inputs, guys!

PS: BTW, the car is running fine from what I can tell. The stop does take a little longer distance than before, but not by much. I'm troubleshooting to see where the leak is, or more precisely, why the brake fluid level in the master cylinder is dropping in the morning after sitting over night.

 

...What are some possible places where a seal or something could be broken, causing the brake fluid to leak?

If the power brake booster or the master cylinder is broken and needs to be replaced, they aren't cheap, especially the power brake booster. I just took a look at RockAuto.

Thanks very much again for the inputs, guys!

PS: BTW, the car is running fine from what I can tell. The stop does take a little longer distance than before, but not by much. I'm troubleshooting to see where the leak is, or more precisely, why the brake fluid level in the master cylinder is dropping in the morning after sitting over night.

According to a updated service manual, you are not supposed to pump the brakes more than 999 times while bleeding or you could damage the M.C.

The only damage that I can think of, is damage to the M.C. and fluid is going into the brake booster. If you keep loosing brake fluid, I would suggest you to remove the M.C. from the brake booster (M.C. only, no lines) and see if it is wet, if you see traces of brake fluid behind the M.C. then you need a new M.C.

If M.C. is leaking, then you have also need to remove the brake booster to try to remove most of the brake fluid from it.

Good luck.

 

Just for fun, check connections at rear proportioning valve located in left rear wheel well forward of wheel (I think under splash guard). I have seen those leak.

 

Left rear?

I'll take a look when I have a chance.

It is a significant leak. See my other post.

Thanks for chiming in, Steve!

 

Since you pumped it 1000 times, it's possible that the brake light going on and off drained your battery making it hard to start? But like everyone said your other issues are not normal.

 

Already ordered the MC, Levy.

I might need it sometime in the future.

$30.54 with shipping.

EDIT: While I'm at this, I should point out that I removed the cap of the MC reservoir, while I was bleeding or changing the pads prior.

I learned this while working on my Neon.

The reason of removing the MC reservoir cap while installing new pads is that when pressing in the caliper pistons, the brake fluid would flow back to the MC reservoir. It could create too much pressure and threaten blow a seal.

While bleeding the braking system, I left the cap removed as well, for ease of adding fresh brake fluid, I guess.

I just crumbled a small piece of paper and sorta covered the opening to the MC reservoir, in case any debris--small or big--would fall into it.

That shouldn't have made any difference in the mishap I have experienced, right?

 

Just for the fun of it:

Before you go to bed, add brake fluid as needed to reach the full mark.

With engine off, pump the brake pedal some 15 times, then more, to make sure you remove any residual vacuum stored in the brake booster.

Tomorrow morning check the brake fluid again, bet it will be still very close to the full line.

Let us know.

 

Don't mean to have too many posts. This is just on my mind.

If that much fluid has leaked into the booster, how can the braking system still be functioning then??

Van drives fine, and the braking/stopping seems to be fine as well.

Not much difference vis-a-vis before the brake job.

Also, while doing some research online yesterday, I stumbled on three simple tests to check if your power brake booster is working fine. I'll copy paste them below:

Test 1: With engine off, pump the brake pedal 4 times and hold. Start the car and the brake pedal should sink. If it does, brake booster is good.

Test 2: Start car and let idle for 2 minutes. Press and hold brake pedal. Turn off the engine. Pedal shouldn’t rise for 30 seconds. If it rises, you have a problem with your check valve.

Test 3: Start car and let idle for 2 minutes. Turn off the engine. Pump brake pedal 3 times. The pedal should rise a little bit higher after releasing each time.

I did Test 1 last night. The brake pedal sank. So the power brake booster is fine, per this test.

Didn't get around to Test 2 and 3, but will try them this evening.

 

Don't mean to have too many posts. This is just on my mind.

If that much fluid has leaked into the booster, how can the braking system still be functioning then??

Van drives fine, and the braking/stopping seems to be fine as well.

Not much difference vis-a-vis before the brake job.

Also, while doing some research online yesterday, I stumbled on three simple tests to check if your power brake booster is working fine. I'll copy paste them below:

Test 1: With engine off, pump the brake pedal 4 times and hold. Start the car and the brake pedal should sink. If it does, brake booster is good.

Test 2: Start car and let idle for 2 minutes. Press and hold brake pedal. Turn off the engine. Pedal shouldn’t rise for 30 seconds. If it rises, you have a problem with your check valve.

Test 3: Start car and let idle for 2 minutes. Turn off the engine. Pump brake pedal 3 times. The pedal should rise a little bit higher after releasing each time.

I did Test 1 last night. The brake pedal sank. So the power brake booster is fine, per this test.

Didn't get around to Test 2 and 3, but will try them this evening.

Those "tests"' are not good tests, probably from a forum.

First, no one here even suggested a bad booster.

Second, if you want to test your booster (bad booster will not cause any of your problems):

1.- Start engine and let it idle for a few seconds. Stop engine.
2.- Wait a minute, and several times pump the brake pedal (engine off), you should feel the pedal getting harder and harder after each pump.
3.- Start the engine, let it idle for a few seconds.
4.- Wait an hour or two and start pumping the brake pedal, you should feel it like on strep 2 above.

You are not really testing the brake booster, you are testing vacuum, if vacumm breaks, then you can have a bad booster, a bad check valve or a bad check valve seal. Any vacuim break can cause engine problems.

 

Thanks for the input, Levy!

This just occurred to me:

Suppose something inside the MC broke--a seal, for instance, while I was pumping the brake pedal, bleeding the brake system.

The brake fluid, while shooting through the check valves in the bleeder screws, also went into the brake booster due to a broken seal in the MC and then went into the intake via the vacuum hose.

Could that be the reason why the van could not be started for the first three times??

The intake or throttle body was flooded by brake fluid??

But then how do you explain that the van started on the fourth try??

 

It could be that one or two spark plugs got wet causing starting problems.

But, let's wait and see if your M.C. indeed failed.

 

Still doing research on the brake fluid leaking.

Found this on a forum:

"...don't forget to put a block under the brake pedal, so it doesn't travel until it hits the floor as you pump it. If you don't, you might over extend the range of movement in the cylinder and cause damage. Good luck."

I think the above is exactly what happened to me!

It happened when I was bleeding the last corner, front left. The brake pedal suddenly went all the way down to the floor! And of course, I didn't have a block of wood under the brake pedal.

I immediately sensed that something might have gone wrong!

I over-extended the range of movement and damaged a seal or something inside the MC!

Can't wait to disconnect the vacuum hose to the brake booster to see if there's any brake fluid.

My research also says the brake fluid sucked into the intake can also exit via the exhaust pipe as white smoke!

And some folks say immediately after you fix the leaking brake fluid, change the oil. It seems that the brake fluid can also seep into the oil, which, in turn, will swell the seals in the motor!

Damn!

A simple flushing of the brake fluid can wreck an entire motor! :biggrin:

Do you guys know a good way to bleed the system fast and easy?

The speed bleeder screws worked fine on my Dodge Neon, but that was many years ago. The newer generation of speed bleeder screws are too slow in flushing the entire system. For a few pumps, they might be OK, but not for flushing the entire system.

PS: And it looks like I need a new brake booster as well. Would a used one from the junk yard work fine? And how can I tell if it is good or bad at the yard?

I need to concentrate on my reading and studying, lol!

 

Alrighty, Levy and gang, I jacked up my van today and removed all four tires and had a thorough inspection. No leak around the bleeder screws or hoses or anywhere around the 4 tires.

So the only place where the leaked brake fluid has gone would be the brake booster!

I then went to the junkyard, removed two to three MC's to see what the brake booster looked like.

It has a huge cavity inside! Could easily hold 20 to 30 fluid ounces.

I'd bet all the fluid went there!

I didn't remove the MC, because I've already ordered a new MC from RockAuto. It should be here this weekend or early next weekend. Hope the van can last till then.

This morning, the fluid in the MC dipped to the bottom. I was worried that the ABS light would be triggered on, but it was not. The brake light on the dash was lit for about 45 seconds to 1 minute, but disappeared eventually!

I let out a sigh of relief!

Looks like i need to get up in the middle of the night to refill the brake fluid, lol! Otherwise, the reservoir would be empty!

And btw, I think the excessive amount of fluid in the brake booster was the cause of no start after I flushed the entire system.

The brake fluid was sucked into the intake and flooded it.

Now I, at least, know why I had a no start issue!

And I will still have to pump the brake pedal at least a hundred times to bleed the farthest corner--left rear--after I've installed the new MC and the new front calipers and brake hoses.

The other three corners, perhaps, not a hundred times, but at least 25 to 50.

Would I bust the seal in the new MC with that many pumps of the brake pedal?

 

If you haven't done this, do it tonight:
.

Just for the fun of it:

Before you go to bed, add brake fluid as needed to reach the full mark.

With engine off, pump the brake pedal some 15 times, then more, to make sure you remove any residual vacuum stored in the brake booster.

Tomorrow morning check the brake fluid again, bet it will be still very close to the full line.

 

Forget all the pedal pumping to bleed the brakes. Too many troubles. I just gravity bleed mine, just like the shop that I used to work in did. It's simple; you remove the reservoir cap, and loosen one bleeder only. Run a hose from the bleeder to a container below the brake you are working on. Slowly the fluid will naturally leak down to the lowest point, the container, because there is no vacuum in the reservoir from the cap being on. You can also get a hand-actuated vacuum pump brake bleeding kit and suck it through the bleeder with the reservoir cap off. That's how I used to do it, until my pump broke. Just check and top-up the reservoir now and then, and you'll be fine. Also, when replacing brake pads when you compress the piston back in, open the bleeder and let the old fluid that was trapped in the caliper out of the system. The calipers will be where any water in the system will gather, because brake fluid absorbs moisture. I do this except for when the bleeder is rusted tight and I don't want to break it off.

Agree on the master cylinder leaking into the booster. Now, your booster may go bad in the future because brake fluid will eat the rubber diaphragm inside and you'll lose the vacuum assist, and also a potential vacuum leak through the booster pedal rod. Also, don't trust a new master cylinder if you get other brake problems later. I once installed a brand new Dorman M/C and it was bad right away; not leaking, just not releasing the brakes fully a couple of times and ruining the front brakes on my van. I replaced it with a remanufactured A-1 Cardone from O'Reilleys and it's been good ever since.

 

Thanks, Levy and Dan, for the inputs!

Yes, I just tried your trick, Levy. I pumped 20 times. Let's see what the fluid level will be like tomorrow.

And Dan, I'll do some research on the hand-actuated pump to bleed. I have a mity-vac.

Gravity bleed is nice, too, except I don't know how long it will take.

Thanks again for the inputs, guys!

Sincerely appreciated!

 

I think I might go to the yard to score a used brake booster. $40 should handle it. A new one is quite expensive, even at RockAuto price. The cheapest there is $50 plus $35 core plus shipping!

O'Reilly's and AutoZone has them for $75 before tax.

Also, the removal and install of the brake booster requires the removal of the intake plenum, no?

 

Why changing the brake booster? Just remove the one you have and drain the fluid out of it. Diaphragm is made of brake fluid resistant material.

 

First I will apologize for NOT reading all of this thread BUT when you bleed brakes its an un_written rule that you never want to push the pedal all the way down to the floor and bottom out the master.
Bottoming it out forces the seals into areas of the bore not normally used, where corrosion has built up. This corrosion tears up the seals.

 

Now I know!

Thanks for chiming in!

 

Yes, if the brake fluid hasn't been changed for years, it has likely absorbed moisture and caused internal corrosion, even here in northern CA. In the east, you should change brake fluid every 3 yrs or so. DOT 4 lasts longer. DOT 5 (silicone) lasts forever, but jugs say "not for ABS" (even though it works fine, tested in my 96 Voyager w/ ABS). Once rusty, the MC seals can get cut easily, but might have been hard and ready to fail anyway. MC's are cheap, boosters are expensive. You might have had rust-gunk blocking the bleed port. If open, the pedal should have gone down easy and a lot of fluid come out, so ~10 pedal strokes should have cleared it. I once couldn't get anything out of my 1982 Aries caliper, until my helper pushed hard w/ both feet and a wad of rust blew out. That is when I decided to slowly change all my cars to silicone, and bleed religiously until then. My 1982 Chevy S-10 had a rusted-out rear wheel cylinder after just 4 years and I hadn't even opened the system since bought new. I wonder what junky fluid the factory poured in.

 

...You might have had rust-gunk blocking the bleed port. If open, the pedal should have gone down easy and a lot of fluid come out, so ~10 pedal strokes should have cleared it...

The four bleeder screws are brand new speed bleeder screws, which have check valves built in--unless you meant the bleed ports in the wheel cylinders in the back and in the calipers in the front.

The pass front caliper's dust boot is shot. I've ordered a pair of remaned Raybestos from RockAuto. They should be here sometime next week.

Those come with new, conventional bleeder screws, I think.

And for the rear, I'm thinking about swapping out the speed bleeder screws for conventional ones.

And I've just tested with my Mity Vac with a used conventional bleeder screw. Once I close the hose in the screw with my thumb, the Mity Van can hold 17 to 18 vacuum for a minute or two!

I could hold it longer, lol, but I figure one or two minutes should be long enough!

So that's good news!

The speed bleeders worked fine on my 96 Dodge Neon, which is now junked.

I bought those bleeders sometime in 2009 or 2010, IIRC.

Once they were loosened 1/4 to 1/2 turn, lots of fluid shot out, with two to three pumps of the pedal!

So I was REALLY, REALLY surprised that a tiny volume of fluid came out, when I pressed on the brake pedal this time!

I guess the manufacturer of the speed bleeders might have changed their design?

But this would be the last time I use speed bleeders.

I'm going to use the Mity-Vac to bleed. I'm also planning on building a one-man bleeding rig with a soda bottle or something similar and a length of hose.

A certain length of hose has to be submerged in the brake fluid at the bottom of the bottle, of course.

That would be my back up.

 

Picked up four conventional bleeder screws to replace the four speed bleeder screws:

Question: do you put thread locker or sealant on the threads?

I searched but found conflicting ideas on this. Some say yes, some say no.

Would like to know what folks in this site say.

 

No sealer needed, the sealing is done by the taper on the screw contacting the caliper body. Anti-seize on the threads isn't a bad idea.

As for the bench bleeding, I like to use the no hose method.

 

Also doing some research on properly bench bleeding an MC before install.

Method #1: Bench bleed *without* hoses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH8sB_unvgg

Method #2: Bench bleed *with* hoses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=523fHbmbdsQ

Which method is better??

 

If you have a helper, I would prefer to bleed the M.C. in the vehicle. Nothing can beat that.

As for teflon tape on the bleeders, if using the Mity-Vac's yes, a little Teflon tape will help, listen to manufacturer's advice, don't let others tell you otherwise.

 

Alrighty, thanks for the inputs, Levy and 94 Sport!

I've run into a little trouble finding the correct fittings to bench bleed my MC.

I picked up a bench bleeding kit from O'Reilly's. It's a Dorman brand. (Package isn't with me in the van--it's in the storage, so I don't know its part number.)

Of the several fittings it included, I only found one that fits the secondary port--the one that is farthest from the brake booster.

I cannot find the correct sized fitting for the other port--the primary port!

Maybe I've missed something in a hurry.

I've since picked up another MC bleeding package. Don't know if that one includes the correct fitting.

Do you guys know the size and thread pitch of the two fittings that go into the MC?

Mine has traction control. It has a "Trac Off" button to the left of the steering wheel. Plus, my TC is the Limited trim. It has to have this fancy feature.

I heard that tube sizes are different for vehicles with Traction Control feature.

 

Somebody asked the same question, but did not get an answer.

http://forum.chryslerminivan.net/archive/index.php/t-12585.html?

Mine has traction control, so the tubes are a little thicker. 15/64"?

As I said in the above post, I'm having a little trouble finding the correct sized fitting to bench bleed my MC.

And Levy, I don't have a helper, so I have to bench bleed my MC first.

 

I do M.C. bleeding on the vehicle, quick and easy, but a little messy, but not much. To me, even better than bench bleeding.

 

If I could find a helper, I don't mind bleeding the MC with it installed in the vehicle.

Right now, I'm stumped by the correct size fitting for the primary port of the new MC I bought from RockAuto.

The Dorman kit I picked up from O'Reilly's does not have the correct size fitting, and the second package I picked up from NAPA does not look promising, either, lol!

My vehicle has traction control. I guess the ports, maybe especially the primary port, is slightly larger.

Just picked up this Miller Special Tool 8129 from eBay for $18 with free shipping, just in case I cannot find the correct fitting for the primary port.

https://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?itemid=191782072976&transid=1486026571009&ul_noapp=true

 

Bench bled the MC today and also received a separate package from RockAuto containing a pair of front calipers and flex brake hoses.

Will tackle the job tomorrow!

And hopefully, tomorrow will be a nice day with no wind or rain.

The first bleeder kit I bought contained one fitting with the correct size, and the second kit contained one. So I had to buy two kits to find a pair of correct sized fittings for the two ports on the MC! Lol, is this a joke or something? You would think they should provide pairs of same size fittings, no!?

The two fittings are of the same size, btw. Don't know if the two brake tubes--primary and secondary--are of the same diameter.

PS: both bleeder kits contained *black* hoses!? Why no clear hoses??? Can anyone tell me why?

 

Got the job done today!

Swapped in a new MC, pair of front calipers, and pair of front flex hoses.

Also bled the entire system.

Mity-Vac broke at the third corner. Fortunately, I did some practice with a back up plan--a length of hose submerged in enough fluid in a jar. So that solved the problem!

After I buttoned up everything, I drove 4 miles to a place for dinner. Was super hungry!

I remembered to check if the brakes were dragging and touched the front tires with my knuckles. Tires were cold, but I felt heat from front rims and rotors area. It sorta surprised me, because I didn't remember feeling the heat coming from the rims area before today's job.

After dinner, I drove another 4 miles back. And I checked the temperature at the two front rims carefully. They were warm and even slightly hot, after now 8 miles of light street driving.

I then poked a finger at both front rotors. They were hot to the touch!

Both front tires were cold, however.

Is this normal with rims warm to slightly hot after 8 miles of light street driving?

During the install, I even slightly expanded the metal bracket holding the flex hoses before install with a flathead screw driver, but the metal was really, really thick!

I didn't do much there, and just hoped for the best.

The rims at both front sides were warm or slightly hot to touch, to repeat.

Could this also be a MC problem?

After about 30 to 40 minutes, the rims and rotors were completely cool. I then drove 1 mile to another place. Rims on both sides were cold to touch! Guess, it will have to take 4 miles for the rims and rotors to be warm or slightly hot??

I will continue to monitor the situation tomorrow by doing more driving.

PS: yes, the brake fluid leaked a huge amount into the brake booster. It was right at the half way point. I filled two jars of this size in the pic! I'm thinking 50 to 60 fl oz!

Has anyone else experienced a nightmare like this??