[Daasch]

Hi all! I've done some searching and haven't found any threads that address this issue specifically. My 1996 Grand Voyager with the 3.3L cranks for a very long time when starting cold. Warm starts are OK. Sounds like a fuel issue, right? So I hooked up the pressure gauge to the fuel rail, and turned the ignition on. 11 PSI. Hmmm. So I cycle it a few times, and only get 11-12 PSI. Crank it to start, and as usual, it takes about 20 or so seconds of cranking before it catches. The pressure climbs to 25-30 for a several seconds as it idles roughly, then the pressure goes up to 48 PSI. But it doesn't stay there, it fluctuates down to 45 and up to 48, back & forth. When I shut it off, it'll hold 45 PSI for well over an hour.

It runs fine, but it's a bear to start when cold, and I'm concerned that the fuel pump may be on it's way out. That, or the regulator, which is part of the pump.

What I'm really wondering, is what sends the signal to the pump to prime the system? I know when you turn the key on, the pump will run for a few seconds to build pressure. This isn't doing much pressure building. It's as if it's waiting for the signal from the crank position sensor before it energizes the pump long enough to build pressure. Could a clogged filter be causing this? It has 167,000 miles on it, and to the best of my knowledge has never been changed.

I appreciate any inputs or suggestions anyone might have. I'm a little lost here. It's not a simple case of the pump quitting outright or anything easy like that. Not that I want the pump to give up the ghost, but better now, in the driveway than out in the middle of nowhere, if you know what I mean.

 

[RIP]

Check voltage at the pump connection. If you're getting a steady and consistant 12vdc for a few seconds when the key is turned to "on" then it's time for a new pump. More than likely the pump is toast but take a few minutes and make sure you don't have a leak somewhere bleeding the pressure down. Theory: you have an lder van with an older weak pump that may be able to do the job for quite a while if not over burdened by a leak external of the pump.

The fuel pump relay turns the pump on.

 

[dano726]

This is quite similar to my problem except my pressure doesn't hold after turning off the car. I've replaced pump and filter to no avail. If interested follow my progress - thread is "Key Dance codes 12,42, and 31 Help!" I'm going to keep watching your thread to see what you come up with.
96 Grand Voyager 3.3L

 

[andyg]

The OP most likely has a pump problem. Daasch, can you take the van for a ride around the block and tell us how it runs at wide open throttle? The pump may have issues getting pressure up until the engine is running and the pump is on full time. The engine may struggle to provide full power if the fuel flow is not enough.

 

[Daasch]

Thanks for the replies. Very thoughtful insight.

RIP: I'm going to try exactly that; check for voltage at the pump. Hopefully I can get to it tomorrow. Right now I have to partake in that other four-letter word: [email protected]&K. I sleep, I work, I sleep I work... Doesn't seem to end.

andyg: I like your suggestion, direct and to the point. I might try that on the way to work tonight. It did make me LOL though - the thought of literally going around the block at WOT. Y'know, these vans (even the 3.3) have so much power I'd be boiling the tires most of the way! And I'm sure I'd get 3 or 4 tickets in the process. I know you didn't mean it literally, but it is funny if you take it that way. Just imagining the looks on people's faces as a minivan comes rippin' around, tires squealing, smoke & dust flying... Gives me a good chuckle.

dano726: Sounds like we have a similar problem. I'm thinking (just guessing here) that there may be an issue with the fuel pressure regulator. Sadly, that's part of the pump you just changed. If your injectors aren't leaking down, and you hear it gurgling back into the tank, I'm thinking pressure regulator. Before you throw more money at it, I might suggest you get a fuel pressure gauge. Only $15.99 at Harbor Freight. Then you can connect that, and see exactly what the pressure is doing. I also like the suggestion from your thread about clamping off the hose at the tank. That narrows it down to one side or the other - injectors or regulator. I'll keep you posted.

FWIW A few of the things that baffle me most are the fact that both my 99 GV and the 96 do bleed off the fuel pressure overnight. This never concerned me in the 99 because as soon as I turn the key I hear the pump priming and it starts right up every time. Both vans are old and on original filters and pumps. (I know, I know, I need to get those filters changed.) Another oddity is the pump on the 96 is almost silent. Can't hear it over the door chime or the engine running. The pump on the 99 is louder, you can hear it all the time.

I'm just thinking out loud here: but what if whatever it is that sends the timed signal to the pump when the key is first set to the run position is acting up? Could it be it's just not running the pump long enough? Or is there a separate circuit for the pump prime cycle? It puzzles me that I'm only getting a few PSI when it primes. That tells me the pump is getting voltage, a little at least, but it's not going up high enough? I dunno.

What I'll do, real quick before I go to work, is hook the pressure gauge to the 99 and see what I get. Both vans have been sitting all day. I'll post back the results.

 

[Daasch]

UPDATE

I put the gauge on the 99. First reading: 0 PSI. Turned the key to the on position, pump runs, pressure shoots to 48. Starts up, no problem, gauge reads just under 50. Cycled the key several times, pump runs, pressure around 48 every time.

Out of curiosity, I check the 96 (just by turning the key, no gauge). No sound, no nothing. I even rolled the window down, shut the door and fastened the seatbelt. Tried several times, no sound at all from the pump. I do hear the relay clicking on and off though.

Next step: check for voltage at the pump. That will have to wait though. I'm off to work and my hands and keyboard smell like gas. I kinda like it, but my girlfriend is scrunching up her nose. Guess she doesn't like my Eau de 87 octane cologne. Go figger.

 

[andyg]

andyg: I like your suggestion, direct and to the point. I might try that on the way to work tonight. It did make me LOL though - the thought of literally going around the block at WOT. Y'know, these vans (even the 3.3) have so much power I'd be boiling the tires most of the way! And I'm sure I'd get 3 or 4 tickets in the process. I know you didn't mean it literally, but it is funny if you take it that way. Just imagining the looks on people's faces as a minivan comes rippin' around, tires squealing, smoke & dust flying... Gives me a good chuckle.

Lol you may never realize it, but these things have barely enough power to make noise and whatnot. Before I killed my first trans, I used to fry the tires all the time with my 3.8, and these days I still keep the pedal planted on the floor and rip corners. All those screeching and mild tire smoke coming out of a corner does indeed make people stare.
:lol:

 

[Daasch]

Latest Update:
Checked voltage at pump. It is good. Pump runs when key cycled to on position, but just doesn't provide enough pressure. So it's either the pump, regulator or clogged filter. I have a filter on the way, will change that first. I have the sinking feeling that a pump change is in my near future.

Any recommendations on which pump to get or which ones to stay away from? Delphi, Bosch, Airtex? Given the critical nature of the pump vis a vis getting the van down the road, I'd hate to save a buck now and end up walking home because of my thriftiness. My girlfriend would hate it (and me) even more. It's her van.

 

[dano726]

I bought a Spectra Premium from RockAuto - they have pretty good prices and delivery is pretty quick. I'm not going to recommend the Spectra because of the problem I had with my pump that you are aware of. They have other choices.
My advice would be to check the pump out thoroughly before installing. If you can, hook up the pump and just place it in the tank to test it before screwing it down and hoisting the tank back up.
Good Luck!

 

[Daasch]

Latest update: Changed out the fuel filter, no difference at all. Ugh! To the best of my knowledge it was the original filter with 167,000 miles on it and no clogging or resistance to flow whatsoever.

Pump is on order, and I'll change that next and keep my fingers crossed. Got it on Ebay for $69.95... I guess I'll cross my toes too that it lasts. :eekkkk: