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People try this on her caravan? I try it but not in my van and that works. The only problem is the amperage, for have a good performance of hydrogene they must take a lot of current.
 

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If you're talking about the hydrolysis of water to burn in your engine, that is not going to help anything. The little bit one can create from a large amount of electricity is not going to benefit fuel mileage one bit. I would avoid adding the extra weight to the van and keep everything as it is.
 

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Yes i no but, i was just wanted to do the experiance and wanted to no if some body else do the same. In this case it's possible to exchange about it!
 

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I've worked on making my own generators for other reasons and I used very high current and could still only manage a small amount of gas.

I was using copper plates set up in a 5 gallon bucket of solution. Using ~100 volts DC would make the water look like it was boiling but not very helpful to what i wanted.
 

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I plan on putting HHO into my van soon. I have been doing some research into it as well as asking my Chemistry professor about it. There are several things that can affect the output of HHO gas such as: temp, what electrolyte is used, what type of metal is being used as well as others. Adding a PWM (pulse width modulator) will increase gas production it seems. As far as using volts and amps to run the hydrolysis, the alternator is not putting out power at 100% capacity. In macroeconomics they call moving from below maximum output to maximum output, a free lunch. I am going to build a mason jar type generator using stainless steel 2 in. fender washers. I have chosen this since they are cheap and precut so it would reduce the amount of fabrication needed. It also seems that having some neutral plates will reduce heat and amperage pull. (Those go hand in hand) The idea voltage setting as some say is 2.4 volts per plate but, I am going to go with the neutral plates. I have also been doing a bit of research into what electrolyte to use to avoid caustic and corrosive effects. I think have a work around for that but, I will only know for sure when I build one and test it out. I have seen HHO gas burn and explode when not handled correctly. The only real issue I have left to research is how much I need to back my O2 sensors out of the exhaust system as to keep the ECM from trying to compensate for the extra O in the line. When people tell me it will not work, I just say, people thought Christopher Columbus was crazy, the Wright Bro. were wrong and Henry Ford’s own engineers said, we can’t build a V8. (After Henry told them he would find some engineers that would, they made one…how about that)

I have decided since space is at a premium in the engine compartment that I will be removing the windshield washer reservoir for the space I need.

Also I will be using a double bubbler with some interesting twist to control the corrosive and caustic effects of direct burning of HHO gas.

The electrolyte I will use is NaHCO3 , Sodium Bicarbonate (known also as baking soda) I thought of Na2CO3 , sodium carbonate (known as baking powder) since it has a lower pH but, since I think I found a work around for the pH issue I am going with the first since it also has an H atom in it, and since NaHCO3 will completely dissociate in Di water, I should get a little more energy in the HHO gas.

I say keep rolling with it but, take all precautions and make sure your own HHO is linked the run switch in the van so it will shut itself off when you turn the key off. Not doing so can make the generator go Boom. (I will never try and directly burn HHO gas coming from the generator or a nice boom can occur)

It also seems that too much electrolyte will be bad as well.

Here is a link for someone’s HHO generator, it is very crude but it does make burnable gas. (He is buring the gas through a bubbler)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O3-C-19qHE&feature=related
 

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Oy vey; the HHO scam again. Folks, it is a scientific certainty that any vehicle an HHO generator is added to will consume more fuel due to the extra alternator drag than the resultant HHO will offset. Net result; worse fuel economy. While it may be fun to play around with generating HHO, it will do nothing positive for fuel efficiency of a gasoline powered vehicle.
 

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I doubt that a constant load of an alternator would realize a notable difference in mpg when compared to the force in which the crank is being turned but, I will check with my physics instructor the next time I see him. I suppose I should also see if there is a way to theoretically quantify the additionally load in % reduction in mpg. It would seem to me a constant load of an alternator would not show a significant difference on mpg as opposed to a partial load of an alternator which has much less mass; when compared to that of the engine. If on the other hand the engine were much smaller then there could be a significant reduction in % mpg. It really seems the key in obtaining a noticeable increase in fuel efficiency would be directly proportional on the efficiency of the production of HHO. Just as car engineers have been seeking ways to make more fuel efficient cars, others can seek a more efficient way to produce HHO. If someone were to argue the laws of thermodynamics, my take on it is this, when using a HHO generator one is not making H2O but, rather using the potential engery in the water.
 

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I doubt that a constant load of an alternator would realize a notable difference in mpg when compared to the force in which the crank is being turned but, I will check with my physics instructor the next time I see him. I suppose I should also see if there is a way to theoretically quantify the additionally load in % reduction in mpg. It would seem to me a constant load of an alternator would not show a significant difference on mpg as opposed to a partial load of an alternator which has much less mass; when compared to that of the engine. If on the other hand the engine were much smaller then there could be a significant reduction in % mpg. It really seems the key in obtaining a noticeable increase in fuel efficiency would be directly proportional on the efficiency of the production of HHO. Just as car engineers have been seeking ways to make more fuel efficient cars, others can seek a more efficient way to produce HHO. If someone were to argue the laws of thermodynamics, my take on it is this, when using a HHO generator one is not making H2O but, rather using the potential engery in the water.
Like it or not, believe it or not, you are advocating the repeal of the second law of thermodynamics and the law of conservation of energy. You can cloud the issue with all kinds of words and theories based upon urban legends, but the fact remains, that until you can repeal either or both of the above laws, burning gasoline to make HHO to then augment the gasoline to be burned in the engine will always-always be a net loss.
 

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I’m not trying to repeal any of the three laws of thermodynamics or to buck the law of consvation of energy, which is basically one of the laws of thermodynamics. I am going to simply try and recapture some of the lost energy in the combustion process; E. One loss of E is in the alternator spinning and not doing anything, except taking up a small % of hp. Since heat helps the hydrolysis to a certain level, then the ambient temp in the van's engine compartment will hopefully cause the stainless steel unit to undergo an endothermic reaction and gain heat, or E. The internal combustion engine is very inefficient and is subject to a high level of nature’s heat tax. Another out of the box idea is to reconfigure the internal combustion engine to actually run hotter (not consume more gas) so a small geothermal unit can be used to produce electricity. People will always say something can’t be done, until its done. One of my purposes in attending the MECH program at the local university it so try and make the internal combustion engine a retro fit, to do one or two things, make it more efficient and/or make it produce fewer emissions. By the same token of your argument regular cars, hybrid cars and electrical cars are also a waste of E, because there is a net loss of E from ground to hp at the wheels. I am not trying to use urban legends or some form of unique speech, I am simply trying to reduce the waste of E in my van.
 

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Use the exhaust to turn an alternator like a wind turbine. That way you'll be using the biggest energy loss a combustion engine has. Running the alternator at high loads will just burn them up. Its common knowledge that the ventilation under the hoods of fwd cars is poor.
 

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Using the latent heat of the exhaust to drive the alternator, A/C compressor, water pump, oil pump, power steering pump and brake booster will yield tangible gains in fuel efficiency. Step it up one more notch and design the engine with an electrically powered dynamic valve train, lose the throttle body, and step up the fuel economy gains even more. So I ask you, why screw around with HHO?
 

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Using the exhaust to run an alternator is a good out of the box idea. I am sure there could be a design to make it work. I am not concerned about buring up my fairly new altenator. If that occurs it will be just another opportunity to find a solution. That is what engineer training is all about, solving problems. The nay sayer can post away and cast stones if they want. Nuf said as far as I am concerned.
 

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I get the problem solving need thing. I have that too, and Shipo is the kind of guy who also gets that.

The main thing is that some crazy amount like over 75% of the gasoline's energy goes out the tail pipe as heat. Much more gain to be had in harvesting that. That gives me ideas about a turbine set in the exhaust.

One could give a middle finger to the epa and get a lean tune. Sure it increases CO emissions, but you can run an engine much leaner than thought as long as the cooling system is working well.
 

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I get the problem solving need thing. I have that too, and Shipo is the kind of guy who also gets that.

The main thing is that some crazy amount like over 75% of the gasoline's energy goes out the tail pipe as heat. Much more gain to be had in harvesting that. That gives me ideas about a turbine set in the exhaust.

One could give a middle finger to the epa and get a lean tune. Sure it increases CO emissions, but you can run an engine much leaner than thought as long as the cooling system is working well.
The good news on the exhaust pipe loss of energy is that most modern engines have reduced that percentage to less than 65%, and some are as low as 60%. BMW is working on a system to capture latent exhaust heat to drive accessories and pumps and such (like I mentioned a few posts ago), a feature which will further reduce the heat loss of the exhaust system. The thing is, there is a diminishing return scenario here, if we're talking about a turbocharged car, the turbo translates some of the heat into boost for the engine, the catalytic converter requires temperatures which exceed a given minimum meaning harvesting the heat above the cat(s) can be problematic, and then with a system such as BMW is developing, (which I assume to be downstream of the cats but upstream of the mufflers), latent exhaust heat may drop to the point where extracting meaningful urge to do work will become quite challenging.

A true "lean tune" is exceedingly difficult to maintain in the dynamic environment of an automobile engine. Piston aircraft, which A) operate at long periods with zero throttle setting changes, and B) have mixture controls, have been running lean of peak (stoichiometric) operations since the late 1940s. The thing is, on the rich side of peak, power output is very stable and very easy to maintain when engines are constantly subject to operator requested power fluctuations. However, on the lean side of peak, the mixture needs to be kept on the knife edge between too rich (and yet still leaner than peak) which is too volatile for long engine and valve life, and too lean where the flame front is not able to propagate itself across the entire cylinder.

Said another way, the EPA has little to do with engines running rich; we just don't have sensors and computers which are fast enough to keep everything under control in the dynamic environment of an automobile engine.

Another little tidbit of information here, given how well educated and innovative many of the world's automotive engineers are, I find it very telling that not even one is exploring HHO generation to enhance fuel economy. Why do you suppose that is? ;)
 

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Another little tidbit of information here, given how well educated and innovative many of the world's automotive engineers are, I find it very telling that not even one is exploring HHO generation to enhance fuel economy. Why do you suppose that is? ;)
Actually, you should "google" Ronn Motor Co. They have had a vehicle at SEMA and they have had a car for automotive groups to test. The car is called the Scorpion and has a retail in the 6 figure region. It uses a Honda/Acura 3.5 L V-6 with a hydrogen convertor of sorts. They are supposed to have a convertor for other vehicles available, but I would expect to see prices for it if it was to that point.
 

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My point is that there are companies working on some sort of easy hydrolysis that only involves tap water.
It has normally been the aftermarket that has sold an idea to the auto manufacturers when it comes to things other than engine or transmission development. Think of Ford and Intermittent wipers.
The first EFI that was attempted in production was by Bendix (1958 Chrysler, Dodge, and Desoto).
 

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Actually, you should "google" Ronn Motor Co. They have had a vehicle at SEMA and they have had a car for automotive groups to test. The car is called the Scorpion and has a retail in the 6 figure region. It uses a Honda/Acura 3.5 L V-6 with a hydrogen convertor of sorts. They are supposed to have a convertor for other vehicles available, but I would expect to see prices for it if it was to that point.
When I made my comment about the world's automotive engineers, I meant engineers working for bona-fide automotive manufacturers. Regarding the claims being perpetuated by the Ronn Motor Company, I'm going to make a prediction; the claims being made about their process will be proven to be completely bogus in the not too distant future.
 

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At the risk of beating a dead horse....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_electrolysis

Electrolysis and thermodynamics

During electrolysis, the amount of electrical energy that must be added equals the change in Gibbs free energy of the reaction plus the losses in the system. The losses can (theoretically) be arbitrarily close to zero, so the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of any electrochemical process equals 100%. In practice, the efficiency is given by electrical work achieved divided by the Gibbs free energy change of the reaction.

In most cases, such as room temperature water electrolysis, the electric input is larger than the enthalpy change of the reaction, so some energy is released as waste heat. In the case of electrolysis of steam into hydrogen and oxygen at high temperature, the opposite is true. Heat is absorbed from the surroundings, and the heating value of the produced hydrogen is higher than the electric input. In this case the efficiency relative to electric energy input can be said to be greater than 100%. The maximum theoretical efficiency of a fuel cell is the inverse of that of electrolysis. It is thus impossible to create a perpetual motion machine by combining the two processes.

[edit] Mars ISRU
 

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Actually, you should "google" Ronn Motor Co. They have had a vehicle at SEMA and they have had a car for automotive groups to test. The car is called the Scorpion and has a retail in the 6 figure region. It uses a Honda/Acura 3.5 L V-6 with a hydrogen convertor of sorts. They are supposed to have a convertor for other vehicles available, but I would expect to see prices for it if it was to that point.
http://www.youtube.com/user/sm0ky40#p/a/u/0/rqEsSY_oVfg
 

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I have seen all those posts on utube and even made a spiral generator used on my truck for experimentation. I found the spiral worked better than anything I tried and I could not produce enough hydrogen fast enough to burn. It made no difference on fuel mileage and is to much of a pain to clean. It don't work.:jpshakehe
 
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