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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2010 GC. I may have left the tailgate cracked, not sure Came back 2 days later, seemed like battery was dead. NBD, put it on charger, leave it overnight. Next day, still dead.

I start digging in - battery is fine, was probably never discharged. Dome lights manually turn on fine. Remote lock doesn't work at all. In-car electric lock doesn't work at all. Ignition does nothing. I checked the fuse box next to the battery, all the fuses are good and the places that are powered match up with my other caravan. I'm curious where power could be getting cut off, as far as I know the door locks are their own thing that are always powered so I'm a bit confused. Hitting the brakes only lights the third brake light. It's like all the stuff that is supposed to be switched in any way has no power. Anyone got ideas on where to probe/check next? I don't have any wiring info for this vehicle and I don't feel like swapping random modules with my other caravan to see if I can find a cause, I'd like to narrow things down a bit first.
 

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How did you determine the battery was "fine"? After an overnight a battery should read 12.3v...preferably higher.
Make certain the terminals are clean.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The battery reads good voltage, both sides of both terminals are cleaned, and I have a 150 amp start assist charger that probably has enough oomph to start a 3.3 with no battery and it's still 100% dead with that hooked up to the battery as well. Voltage also reads good to the fuses, at least to the ones that also have power when my other caravan is shut off. Has to be downstream of there.

It's not like weak battery state where you hit the lock buttons on the door and it doesn't have the power to operate the locks but still makes a small noise, it's completely dead aside from the third brake light and the dome light. Always-on cig lighter might work too, didn't think to check that yet.
 

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Have you disconnected the battery?

If not, disconnect the negative cable, with that cable touch the positive cable (still connected to the battery) a couple of times.

Reconnect the negative cable and try.

Let us know if that helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Have pulled the battery and let it sit for about half an hour, as well as holding the terminals together. No dice.

I also pulled the battery holder and popped out the fuse box to check the grounds. They all look perfect, at least the ones that I know where they are in that vicinity.

Thanks for the input guys. This one is annoying me and I'd love to get a better idea what's going on.
 

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Have pulled the battery and let it sit for about half an hour, as well as holding the terminals together. No dice.
If the battery is out, can you take it to someplace that will load test it? Whats the date on the battery? What were the voltage readings? Do you have an OBD code reader?

I've a Haynes repair manual laying about somewhere. I'll have a look for it.
 

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...repair manual laying about somewhere. I'll have a look for it.
Open circuit (battery disconnected) full charge minimum: 12.6 volts. Just because it holds a charge doesn't mean it can deliver current. ;)

Check the voltage at the starter solenoid when you try to crank it. Fuse J17 at 40 amps feeds the starter relay (thats a lot of current, careful where you poke). 30 on the relay is the feed to J17, and 87 on the relay is out to the starter. 85 and 86 are the terminals for the relay coil (the trigger for the relay).

There should be a 10 amp fuse, no. M28, it feeds the PCM.

The CHMSL (3rd brake light) is on the diagram with the starting system but it's unhelpfully tagged as going to "circuit board" where it terminates at the stop lamp signal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for looking for me.

I can confirm for absolute certain that the battery is fine. It's sitting at nearly 14v when disconnected. As mentioned before I have a charger that is probably powerful enough to start the cart with no battery, certainly massive overkill for powering basic electricals like the locks. I've also tried another battery out of another vehicle. This is not a battery issue.

I do have an OBD reader but it doesn't matter because nothing is getting power. Only the dome light, the third brake light, and the always-on cig lighter have any power. Everything else is 100% dead. Not "not fully functioning", I mean beyond the fuse box everything is completely dead as if you pulled the battery from the car. The car doesn't react to a FOB in any way, either from the remote buttons or from sticking it in the ignition. It's not a FOB problem, I have three of them and there is no chance all three spontaneously combusted simultaneously. Moreover, even the physical lock buttons inside the doors (which should always be powered) do nothing. The car does not react to the door opening, no lights, no door open light, nothing. The lower brake lights also do nothing, presumably because they are switched by another circuit so they can flash for directionals/hazards while the third brake light is wired directly to the brake circuit since it doesn't need to flash.

I've done the relay shuffle so I'm fairly confident it's not a relay issue. Besides, there's a lot of stuff that should be working but isn't that I don't believe goes through a relay - for example the brake lights and door locks.

I'm really coming to hate J-case as a fuse form factor. Not being able to probe the top of the fuse without pulling the fuse to pull the cover off is an awful design. Turns checking to see that everything that should be powered is powered into a nightmarishly long process. You can't just pull fuses because you never know when a fuse is powering a circuit that latches another fuse. I don't want to blindly pull all the J-cases in both my caravans to pull all the tops of all of them and then probe them to compare against each other because I guarantee something is going to wind up broken if I do. I'd really like to have a better idea than that. Is there a single point of failure for everything going out of the TIPM other than the three things I mentioned?
 

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Are you sure you have a power problem and not a ground problem?

Too many problems to blame a + problem, more likely one (or more) of your grounding points is corroded.

Get a wire and ground stright from the negative battery post to chassis (fir testing). See if that helps.
 

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Is there a single point of failure for everything going out of the TIPM other than the three things I mentioned?
Hmmm. My electrical diagram-fu is not that strong.

But I did find this, a dead WIN will do it, seems the WIN is what signals power on to everything (it is, seemingly, the key component). ->

WIN should be on fuse M27, 10A.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Really appreciate the help. I double checked fuses M27 and M13 (M13 is the instrument cluster/BCM). Both are fine and getting juice.

It may well be the WIN. My hesitation is that that doesn't explain why the locks don't work. I don't see why they would run through the WIN at all. Also, I believe that the dash should light up the mileage just by opening the door, and that doesn't happen either. So I could see it being any of the TIPM (fuse box), the CCM (dash, which is the BCM in these cars), WIN, or even wiring. And on an 11 year old vehicle with 370k miles and a minor head gasket leak, I really can't justify spending ~$1k each to swap them out and hope that fixes it. On the other hand, I hate giving up on a vehicle without knowing for sure it's something that isn't worth fixing. Not sure what to do unless I can find more things to probe.

e - you can see in the video you linked that even with the WIN disconnected, his dash lights mileage. I'm betting his locks and other non-key-related functions work as well. So I'm inclined to conclude that the WIN is unlikely to be the problem, and it either has to be something in the TIPM/Wiring between the fuse and the CCM, or the CCM itself. Going to see if I can find pinout for the TIPM so I can check that power is getting to the right wire on the bottom before I start tearing the entire interior apart.
 

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2010 GC. I may have left the tailgate cracked, not sure Came back 2 days later, seemed like battery was dead. NBD, put it on charger, leave it overnight. Next day, still dead.

I start digging in - battery is fine, was probably never discharged. Dome lights manually turn on fine. Remote lock doesn't work at all. In-car electric lock doesn't work at all. Ignition does nothing. I checked the fuse box next to the battery, all the fuses are good and the places that are powered match up with my other caravan. I'm curious where power could be getting cut off, as far as I know the door locks are their own thing that are always powered so I'm a bit confused. Hitting the brakes only lights the third brake light. It's like all the stuff that is supposed to be switched in any way has no power. Anyone got ideas on where to probe/check next? I don't have any wiring info for this vehicle and I don't feel like swapping random modules with my other caravan to see if I can find a cause, I'd like to narrow things down a bit first.
I just went through a similar situation, no power to anything but the battery checked out fine. It ended up being the Alternator causing the problems. I got that changed and it seems to have taken care of the issues.
 

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Really appreciate the help. I double checked fuses M27 and M13 (M13 is the instrument cluster/BCM). Both are fine and getting juice.

It may well be the WIN. My hesitation is that that doesn't explain why the locks don't work. I don't see why they would run through the WIN at all. Also, I believe that the dash should light up the mileage just by opening the door, and that doesn't happen either. So I could see it being any of the TIPM (fuse box), the CCM (dash, which is the BCM in these cars), WIN, or even wiring. And on an 11 year old vehicle with 370k miles and a minor head gasket leak, I really can't justify spending ~$1k each to swap them out and hope that fixes it. On the other hand, I hate giving up on a vehicle without knowing for sure it's something that isn't worth fixing. Not sure what to do unless I can find more things to probe.

e - you can see in the video you linked that even with the WIN disconnected, his dash lights mileage. I'm betting his locks and other non-key-related functions work as well. So I'm inclined to conclude that the WIN is unlikely to be the problem, and it either has to be something in the TIPM/Wiring between the fuse and the CCM, or the CCM itself. Going to see if I can find pinout for the TIPM so I can check that power is getting to the right wire on the bottom before I start tearing the entire interior apart.
Did you ever find a wiring diagram for this??
 

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I checked everything over a month long period and finally had a really good mechanic check things out and he found that it was definitely the alternator, but No, I never did find an electrical schematic. Probably because our 2011 TnC was converted to a wheelchair accessible van. We had fully charged battery but we had no power to anything. The mechanic said on these Van's the alternator being bad can cause a number of strange issues. It's worth checking into anyway.
 

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2010 GC. I may have left the tailgate cracked, not sure Came back 2 days later, seemed like battery was dead. NBD, put it on charger, leave it overnight. Next day, still dead.

I start digging in - battery is fine, was probably never discharged. Dome lights manually turn on fine. Remote lock doesn't work at all. In-car electric lock doesn't work at all. Ignition does nothing. I checked the fuse box next to the battery, all the fuses are good and the places that are powered match up with my other caravan. I'm curious where power could be getting cut off, as far as I know the door locks are their own thing that are always powered so I'm a bit confused. Hitting the brakes only lights the third brake light. It's like all the stuff that is supposed to be switched in any way has no power. Anyone got ideas on where to probe/check next? I don't have any wiring info for this vehicle and I don't feel like swapping random modules with my other caravan to see if I can find a cause, I'd like to narrow things down a bit first.
Hi

I had a VERY similar problem, almost to the T

After racking my head for a while,

Vehicle wouldn't start and had some ghosting issues, while driving, or when vehicle was parked and off- anomalies sort to say as if there was a "ghost in the machine."

Tested battery, Shown as good
Replaced a few relays under the hood - didn't help ( replaced because they were cheap and the van is a 2002)
Checked wiring
Check ignition
Checked Direction switch on column
Everything
And i was being led to believe there was a short, or a relay or switch was failing



In short, ALL my problems were cured
Amazingly by
Replacing the Battery with a Die Hard battery.

Prior Advanced Auto Parts battery I had purchase a few years prior, ( which is no longer sold - but replaced with Die Hard)


Turns out the battery shown it was holding charge and was good
BUT, during the few years I had the battery, my vehicle had odd anomalies happen.
Interior lights go one while driving, wipers went on when van was parked, times it wouldn't start, when it was running just prior.

Since I changed the battery to a Die Hard, ALL of this stopped.
And that was about 4 moths ago, and still running fine with no odd anomalies.
No issues randomly popping up electrically

Drove me nuts!
And it went against everything I thought, it would have been causing the issue.


Just some food for thought
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Got some time to work on this today.

Disconnecting the alternator did nothing.

I will repeat that it is 100% not the battery. Not only have I tried multiple batteries including one straight out of another caravan, I know from experience that even with a very weak/bad battery hitting the lock/unlock buttons on the door will produce at least a small bit of sound if the battery has any charge at all.

I'm basically out of ideas. It's mind blowing to me that no one seems to have any way of testing a TIPM to see if it's functional or not. I'm guessing it's broken but guesses are for cheap parts, not expensive things.
 

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Found this
TIPM


Also this, but dont know if your is the same




When I had my issue many things were leading to something wrong with the TIPM ( maybe rust or corrosion due to age being 2002) and that was part of the reason I spent so much time checking that area, and replacing fuses, and a few relays, with no luck.


I guess my point is sometimes, you can be lead in one direction from the symptoms, but it end up being something else.

I have a 2002 T&C and the TIPMS was perfectly fine, no rust / rot/ or shorts, or anything.

You have a 2010, which to me, unless it was under water at one time, or has moisture leaking into the area, hold doubt about the TIPM being the cause.



You had mentioned in your initial post it started after you believe you had left the rear tailgate door open/ cracked.

My first thought on that, was there any rain during that time the tailgate door was ajar?



Just some thoughts & references
 

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Found this
TIPM


Also this, but dont know if your is the same




When I had my issue many things were leading to something wrong with the TIPM ( maybe rust or corrosion due to age being 2002) and that was part of the reason I spent so much time checking that area, and replacing fuses, and a few relays, with no luck.


I guess my point is sometimes, you can be lead in one direction from the symptoms, but it end up being something else.

I have a 2002 T&C and the TIPMS was perfectly fine, no rust / rot/ or shorts, or anything.

You have a 2010, which to me, unless it was under water at one time, or has moisture leaking into the area, hold doubt about the TIPM being the cause.



You had mentioned in your initial post it started after you believe you had left the rear tailgate door open/ cracked.

My first thought on that, was there any rain during that time the tailgate door was ajar?



Just some thoughts & references

Follow up

Also this regarding TIPM symptoms which seems you dont have going on


 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for the effort.

The odometer doesn't light in my van, nor does anything else. It's 100% dead except for the third brakelight, the always-on cig lighter, and the reading lights.

It's not the WIN because as you can see in that and other videos, a failed WIN doesn't stop the instrument cluster from showing mileage. It could be the CCM, but why would that fail just sitting there for a couple days?

It does seem odd to me that the TIPM would fail, but it is the only part that I can think to blame that is out in the elements, and it's the one part that controls power to everything - and everything has failed, aside from stuff that has nothing in the TIPM beyond a fuse. What I'm gonna do is give one of the places that does TIPM repair a call on Monday. If they think that's the problem based on the symptoms, I'll pull it apart and look for any signs of corrosion. Failing that, I'll probably pull one from a junkyard if I can get it reasonably cheap, or sent it in for repair if I can't. If it's the instrument cluster, it probably makes the most sense to just scrap the thing.
 

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Your welcome
I can understand your frustration, as I have been there too with my 2002.

The feedback and direction I had receive from the kind people here
that had responded back when I had my issue, it helped to expand my mind and what to look for/ check.

Overall my problem was resolve by the last thing anyone expected, since it was checked, and tested as showing Ok.


"""" "It does seem odd to me that the TIPM would fail, ""
If you do see signs of rot, or rust under the hood or anywhere else on the vehicle, and had not driven through floods, I would have a hard time, thinking the entire TIPM failed.

In regards to anomalies, with electronics of any sort, shorts, and surges are the enemy.


Example:
During the time I had my former Advanced Auto Parts battery, some of the issues I had experienced over the last 3 years that I had that battery installed.

  • Side Door opens up by itself, random times
  • Wipers went on, when the vehicle was parked at night
  • Van would randomly not start
  • Interior lights went on while driving on the highway, randomly


All things that would make a person believe there were some major shorts or failing components.

After I had change the battery, NONE of this happens anymore


Electrical Current in commercial businesses, is not a clean as electric supplied to a home

A bad / low quality battery I would have to presume would be the same thing
Quoted
“Dirty power” is an abnormality in the power quality that is being delivered to a system. These abnormalities can include low power factor, voltage variations, frequency variations, and surges. ... Equipment and electronic devices are chosen based on this expected supply of power."""



Overall, the things that work in the van
My thought, is to see if you can obtain wire diagrams
Mark off the items that do work on the diagrams,
and see where/ what each one is tied into on the wire diagrams

If all working items belong to say 1 module, and not the other, it may lead you to the possible cause.

For me,. I am still stuck on the fact all this started after the tailgate was left open.
Ironically the tailgate being left open should have had a Dash Light warning and a Warning Sound.

I am suspecting the issue started before the tailgate was left ajar.
 
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