[FabricGATOR]

Having a driveability issue.
I fueled $40 in the tank yesterday on way to jobsite. The fuel tanker was dropping off when I was there.

I hope they didn't put E-85 into the reg unleaded tank/pump by mistake. I made it to my destination, normal... about three miles. Then a trip to home depot and back (an additional 28 miles roundtrip) ,

Then on the way home from the worksite, stumble and stall. Seemed to be OK while driving on but rolling though an occasional stumble or hesitation may have been detected. Stalled at lights. Aarg I do remember thinking just prior that the fuel pump seemed loud??

If I shut off the engine and restarted it ran ok until a pause or interruption.

Thinking my Delphi fuel pump replacement less than five years ago (I can hear it running) Have to get fuel pressure test gauge set from AutoZone. Will also take a fuel sample and do the water test for alcohol content.
OR
Years ago around the same time frame, but after the fuel pump, finding that it ran great but then would do similar after spirited driving or hot day. I found with the forums help that if I kept a bottle or pail of water and used it to cool the ignition coil it would start right up and run great until heated again. I installed a heat shield above the crossover pipe after as I felt the pipes heat was soaking the ignition coil and I hadn't had any further issue since then.

I've not even popped the hood yet, I was beat after working in the field all day.

When I first bought the van and joined the forum, I did inspect and take precautions regarding the injector wiring. Perhaps that too...

Was running great and then I put that gas in.... the only thing that changed BUT I did get quite a few miles before failure.

Habia una vez...
I've been studying Spanish on DuoLingo app for free!

 

[FabricGATOR]

P1684
P0171

 

[FabricGATOR]

this morning key dance
started like normal
10 minutes 1/2 mile drive normal

 

[Jeepman]

Electrical glitch, any mice around?

I have a throttle position sensor on my Jeep that throws a P0122 code every once in awhile. Rough start offs some times tells me that it is acting up. Feels like a transmission or clutch problem. I have a new sensor to put on, some fine day.

 

[atoman]

P0171

If your van has EGR, check that it's not slicking open...

POSSIBLE CAUSES
GOOD TRIP EQUAL TO ZERO
RESTRICTED FUEL SUPPLY LINE
FUEL PUMP INLET STRAINER PLUGGED
FUEL PUMP MODULE
O2 SENSOR O2 SIGNAL CIRCUIT
O2 RETURN CIRCUIT
O2 SENSOR HEATER OPERATION
THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR SWEEP
MAP SENSOR OPERATION
ECT SENSOR OPERATION
ENGINE MECHANICAL PROBLEM
FUEL CONTAMINATION/EXHAUST LEAK

 

[FabricGATOR]

If your van has EGR, check that it's not slicking open...

No, don't have an EGR valve.
Thank you for the suggestions. I have been so busy where I just haven't had time to research or troubleshoot other than ask you fine fellows for help and experience.

OK, so it has been a few short trips since then, operation normal??? (4 times 6 miles each way) Not a stumble, grumble, nor slightest hesitation?

SO as I originally stated in my introduction... the fuel tanker was dropping fuel as I pumped. Is it possible that the turbulence from refilling the ground tanks got some debris and separated liquidus in suspension and my pump slurped some up and into my van gas tank?

This is very far fetched. I would be surprised that in this day and age that fuel storage tanks didn't have a remote tank sump pipe that can remove crap that settles to the bottom...

The CEL extinguished but key dance still shows P0171 and P1684 as expected.

My consternation revolves around the reliability of the vehicle on a hundred, three hundred, two thousand mile trip. Like any intermittent fault, the frustration of not being able to define nor repeat this is driving me up a tree!

I suppose I should enroll in the AutoClub and take a spirited drive upstate to see what happens...

 

[Sienile]

P1684 is the battery disconnect code. Check battery connections, grounds, alternator, and starter wiring. Get the battery load tested too. There's a chance the PCM itself could have an issue as well.

 

[FabricGATOR]

P1684 is the battery disconnect code. Check battery connections, grounds, alternator, and starter wiring. Get the battery load tested too. There's a chance the PCM itself could have an issue as well.

I am not surprised by the 1684 unless of course I haven't disconnected the battery in quite a while...

Thank you though...

Then again, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as 'expected'

Good point Sienile

 

[beretta96]

If I were in your situation, I’d search for a mechanical/grounding type root cause for the P1684. While doing so, I’d be on the lookout for more fueling, P0171 style issues while I driving the van every chance I got.

Since the lean, drivability concerns were seemingly temporary, ‘yes’, at this point, I’d be leaning towards (pardon the pun) gas station reservoir particles being stirred up and finding their way into your gas tank and fuel injector(s)/pump and hopefully working their way out.

I’ve trained my wife and kids to avoid getting gas while you see the delivery truck there and wait until later in the day to allow the particles to resettle to the bottom of the reservoir.

I know my worldview likely has a bias toward the gas truck introducing particles into your van’s fuel system, but it seems to make the most sense as I read the data you’ve provided.

 

[Jeepman]

Like I said in Post #4, it's a glitch. It will probably happen next year, about this time, after a tanker fill-up.

The P0456 and P1684 code use to come up on my 2002 DGC, mostly in the Fall of the year. I would clear the codes and ignore it until next year. I believe it happened twice in one year though. Freakish for sure

The fact that P1684 comes up with the other code = glitch to me. The above happened on one of my other vehicles too but only a couple of times there. I wouldn't go tearing things apart.

 

[FabricGATOR]

P1684
How about the fact that I disconnected the battery to install a new one a few weeks ago... I presume (assume) that is what set that. Doesn't it take like 50 restart / drive cycles for that to go away?

I happened to receive a AAA enrollment package in the mail just about a hour or two after I typed that out here... AAA is either monitoring my forum activity or THEY put a cough drop in my gas tank last week and suspiciously mailed a break down insurance solution arriving just today. Google and ChatGP AI has me all figured out...

Interestingly, I think the AAA offer has a ten day free trial period and it seems like a good time to schedule a 400 mile road trip to visit my surviving family.

 

[atoman]

p1684 will only set (while changing the battery) if you left ignition in RUN / ON position... (if the keys were out of ignition, no code should set from battery disconnect - it's a diagnostic code for power loss / interruption issues)

p0171 is more important, if you have a scan tool or ODBII dongle and phone app, take a look at long and short term adaptive fuel compensation factor ("trim"). It may be unrelated to your coil pack overheat issues and heat shield solution, but it could be related as lean running engine will generate more heat (esp. from exhaust manifolds)

As for tanker refueling would kick up dirt or debris, modern pumps have intake filters (both gas station pumps and fuel pumps)... water more likely but with E10+ gas, it would have to be a lot of water.

Pull the "freeze frame" from p0171 while the code is still stored - it will show engine RPM and throttle, MAP, voltage, etc values - you could then try to replicate those conditions while paying attention to engine performance.

Symptom: P0171-FUEL SYSTEM 1/1 LEAN

When Monitored and Set Condition:
P0171-FUEL SYSTEM 1/1 LEAN

When Monitored: With the engine running in closed loop mode, the ambient/battery temperature above 20°F(-7C) and altitude below 8500 ft.

Set Condition: If the PCM multiplies short term compensation by long term adaptive and a certain percentage is exceeded for two trips, a freeze frame is stored, the MIL illuminates and a trouble code is stored.

 

[beretta96]

….I happened to receive a AAA enrollment package in the mail just about a hour or two after I typed that out here...

We got a AAA membership 3-4 years ago after realizing we need to make regular, longish trips.

The line that connects the clutch master to the slave cylinder blew up on my ‘07 Focus a couple months ago. It was super easy and fast to get a tow back to my house. They’d have even given me a ride if I needed one. I didn’t have to pay a dime to the driver. He said he’d bill AAA.

 

[Road Ripper]

I'm also thinking it was water in the gas. Happens a lot. Tanker gets there to deliver, dumps the fuel and a slug of water comes out first because the tanker and the fuel are two different temperatures (especially with fluctuating outdoor temps). Condensation forms inside the tanker walls, slips to the bottom and is the first thing out and into the in-ground tank. Yes, even happens with fuel with ethanol as we've had for decades here in MN. Lean code was because it didn't get enough fuel, because the engine was trying to burn water.

Same thing happened with my wife and our 3rd gen van a decade ago, in the spring or fall. Low tank of gas and temperature fluctuations, and she started bucking and throwing the check engine light. I told my wife we just had a big temperature swing, and if the tank was nearly empty it was sucking up water/condensate so go fill the tank. She filled it up and no more problems.

Probably 25 years ago or so, my dad was working at a Chevy dealership across the street from a gas station (he was a bodyman). Delivery tanker got done across the street, and for half a day there was a bunch of cars that came over from that station running like crap. Had to siphon their tanks and put "good" gas in them, and they ran fine. Yup, water in the gas. The pumps have filters to keep out particulates, but they don't have oil/water separators. Every fill-up is a calculated gamble.

 

[atoman]

Tanker gets there to deliver, dumps the fuel and a slug of water comes out first because the tanker and the fuel are two different temperatures (especially with fluctuating outdoor temps). Condensation forms inside the tanker walls, slips to the bottom and is the first thing out and into the in-ground tank.

Up north possible, but in Florida the twin wall tanker can't reasonably get cold enough to condense water out of gasoline...

However, some unscrupulous person(s) could dump some gas and add some water and it can happen anywhere along the "pipeline" (from fuel terminal to gas station)

Or there could simply be a leak in a hatch or pipe somewhere and rain water seeping in.

Either way, water (if present) in the underground tank would get mixed in with fuel so the pickup float would get more or that water (that's why it would have to be a lot of water or nearly empty tank).

 

[FabricGATOR]

Up north possible, but in Florida the twin wall tanker can't reasonably get cold enough to condense water out of gasoline...

However, some unscrupulous person(s) could dump some gas and add some water and it can happen anywhere along the "pipeline" (from fuel terminal to gas station)

Or there could simply be a leak in a hatch or pipe somewhere and rain water seeping in.

Either way, water (if present) in the underground tank would get mixed in with fuel so the pickup float would get more or that water (that's why it would have to be a lot of water or nearly empty tank).

huh, please explain the pickup float...

 

[atoman]

huh, please explain the pickup float...

most modern fuel pumps have a "floating intake" - either fixed above a sump well or lifted up by a float. This design is used to minimize sediment and water pickup

 

[FabricGATOR]

most modern fuel pumps have a "floating intake" - either fixed above a sump well or lifted up by a float. This design is used to minimize sediment and water pickup

Modern technology

p1684 will only set (while changing the battery) if you left ignition in RUN / ON position... (if the keys were out of ignition, no code should set from battery disconnect - it's a diagnostic code for power loss / interruption issues)

If that is the case then, there is certainly a very important clue that I have been ignorant towards. I assumed...

 

[atoman]

Modern technology



If that is the case then, there is certainly a very important clue that I have been ignorant towards. I assumed...

Old pumps used filters with water separators, but ethanol doesn't let water separate till saturation... (and no one maintains the filters/separators)
Ancient pumps didn't have anything, and old timers tell plugged or gummed up carbs were a real pita.

p1684 is a TCM code and on your 2002, TCM is separate from ECU - it can be a clue that there is/was poor battery connection or dying battery. If you erase the code and it comes back, start looking for cause otherwise chalk it up to a 'fluke' since it's ~50 drive cycle 'memory' code.

 

[FabricGATOR]

Old pumps used filters with water separators, but ethanol doesn't let water separate till saturation... (and no one maintains the filters/separators)
Ancient pumps didn't have anything, and old timers tell plugged or gummed up carbs were a real pita.

p1684 is a TCM code and on your 2002, TCM is separate from ECU - it can be a clue that there is/was poor battery connection or dying battery. If you erase the code and it comes back, start looking for cause otherwise chalk it up to a 'fluke' since it's ~50 drive cycle 'memory' code.

Thank you again atoman,
well that is the thing that I am just now realizing thanks to you setting me straight. I have seen that p1684 off and on (more on) since I've had the van. I ASSuMeD that it was from me disconnecting the battery every so often for maintenance where I might arc or spike. It wasn't until this morning that I was educated that was not the situation at all...

So now I have something to be on the lookout for. Since my transmission rebuild, she has ran, really, pretty darn good and reliable. I even blasted up to LI in the winter a few years back without a hitch.
The looks I got at NJ Turnpike rest stop walking through snow slush in my shorts, t-shirt, sockless Sperry Top Siders...