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3rd Gen Plebeian
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Cloudy, poorly adjusted, standard headlights are subpar.
The quad beam headlights are excellent. I swapped them in and retrofitted a turn signal into them. Later on I just swapped the proper 1998-2000 T&C bumper so that I could get the nice turn signals and fog lights too.
 

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3rd gen OEM headlights are unfortunately crap. When the model was introduced it got a massive amount of flak for this, scandinavian car magazines test headlights fairly thoroughly whenever new cars are introduced and they got pretty much the worst possible reviews and light output test results of any car/truck/van on the market at the time. And that was compared to median of regular halogen H4 and H7 headlights common at the time.

I've tried out the quads, unscientifically ie. side-by-side comparison of brand new dealer-sourced US replacement lights to fairly fresh OEM (manufactured by ZKW) EU ones. Metered light output readings (as much as they're applicable) were more or less identical, the beam patterns were different, of course.

They're shockingly worse than even the reflector halogens on my MB G-wagen were (which I swapped for OEM-style projector HID:s on a short notice) and - unscientifically again - aimed at the same spot on a wall against the ancient, 250k mile -worn, faded and almost sandblasted reflector D2R:s of my Volvo XC70, you have hard time trying to tell whether they're even on or not.

Once they age a bit, and they do, they're even more worthless than when they're brand new.

IME, they suck like no headlights that suck have sucked before. Reflectors are small and optically mediocre. Lens is like a recycled plastic beer glass after the spring break. Whoever signed their E-approval documentation should be shot. The only practical way to improve them above "acceptable" threshold seems to be HID projector retrofit with quality modules, Philips Xtremevision / Osram NightBreaker / equivalent D2S bulbs and brand-name ballasts.

Then again, I live up north and street lights aren't always a given. I do have a pair of high efficiency 225mm auxiliary high/pencil beam lights w/ customized large capsule aeromotive HID bulbs and a pair of 100W (net) ballasts driving them so getting quite a bit of light on the road isn't an issue, but whenever you'll have to switch to low beams the OEM lights are just marginally better than turning off the lights altogether.

A massive difference to decent low beam halogens and beyond comparison with any kind of proper HID:s.
 

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hey ATP by the way first super cool article no kidding thank you for writing and I really appreciate it. I believe I will be investing in a light meter for the fun of it that does LEDs. However I have a question about what meter to really get because technically the light source I have is metal halide or technically a HID bulb from an automotive application. They'll be like a D2 s or an H1 version of a high intensity discharge lamp.


you know I'm hearing a lot of people saying that they're bored. And then I run across this post and I realized I have another book to read. so I did.

here's a link to a book that I can post without making Shippo Angry Balls.
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57759





I'm going to kick back and watch a movie but I got a lot of stuff to read so hopefully this other document also sheds light on this. Because I haven't been able to get a full answer of the correct meter to use for high intensity discharge vs. regular halogen lamps.
 

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I wouldn't think there would be an issue measuring luminosity, but HID has terrible spectral characteristics so that might be the cause. Halogen bulbs emit black body radiation like the sun, but LEDs and HIDs emit very specific spectrum of light based on the energy levels of the electrons. Different molecules are selected to simulate a color temperature, but color temperature is only true for blackbody radiation.

57760
 

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Note to self:
When having 3 Remote Desktop Windows open, its helpful to have some sleep before you press the post button. Or ATP sounds like some Imaginary Friend I don't have.

I wouldn't think there would be an issue measuring luminosity, but HID has terrible spectral characteristics so that might be the cause. Halogen bulbs emit black body radiation like the sun, but LEDs and HIDs emit very specific spectrum of light based on the energy levels of the electrons. Different molecules are selected to simulate a color temperature, but color temperature is only true for blackbody radiation.

View attachment 57760

You beat me to the Punch! Superb!

I was trying to use tools like Google Scholar and then see if I could check out some online books to the subject of Light meters. Though I think the book I posted is Very out of date as far as Tools used to measure light; on thing holds true in all cases.


ATP (OF COURSE ITS IN EUROPE!.. THE only PEOPLE who have a standard for everything! :cool: )
Stated that the way these meters measure light are indeed (From what I can find about the tool I have, that seems to be a copy of what was used in the video) the very same tools used to measure Filament or Incandescent style bulbs.

This Old Girl. (Yes I love 50's)

Now it goes over the Halogen lamps we still use today. It seems that most of our Light measuring devices were based on either 2 bulbs. Florescent and Incandescent. Thing is that from what Edy posted (Thanks Edy!)

You can see that the Spectral output does not look the same from the 2 common types we have been use to for years from Incandescent and Florescent tubes. So how does the light meter generally work to measure the light output or photon emissions from these two types of bulbs accurately?

As stated here from ATP:

"This calibration is carried out using a tungsten white light source"


So when we are going to measure something like a LED bulb, the accuracy of these can be off as much as 30%! That's huge. Most of these devices are within +/- 10% at worst. On Average they are depending on scale and calibration good to about within +/- 1% if used in the right ranges depending on the specs of the meter chosen.

But for Arguments sake. Lets use the same meter that was used. And so from that, since its made in CHINA, its going to be at the default out of the box +/- 10% accuracy. Or Ballpark Franks. These are not Hebrew National Quality or Nathans here.

ATP says that most light meters are calibrated to how the human eye is able to perceive light.

From Wikipedia:

The International Commission on Illumination (usually abbreviated CIE for its French name) is the body responsible for publishing all of the well-known standard illuminants. Each of these is known by a letter or by a letter-number combination.

Illuminants A, B, and C were introduced in 1931, with the intention of respectively representing average incandescent light, direct sunlight, and average daylight. Illuminants D represent phases of daylight, Illuminant E is the equal-energy illuminant, while Illuminants F represent fluorescent lamps of various composition.

There are instructions on how to experimentally produce light sources ("standard sources") corresponding to the older illuminants. For the relatively newer ones (such as series D), experimenters are left to measure to profiles of their sources and compare them to the published spectra:[1]
At present no artificial source is recommended to realize CIE standard illuminant D65 or any other illuminant D of different CCT. It is hoped that new developments in light sources and filters will eventually offer sufficient basis for a CIE recommendation.
— CIE, Technical Report (2004) Colorimetry, 3rd ed., Publication 15:2004, CIE Central Bureau, Vienna
Nevertheless, they do provide a measure, called the Metamerism Index, to assess the quality of daylight simulators.[2][3] The Metamerism Index tests how well five sets of metameric samples match under the test and reference illuminant. In a manner similar to the color rendering index, the average difference between the metamers is calculated.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_illuminant#cite_note-4




Shipo would get this:
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(If you are using the Dark website setting, you will not see the image)

So that is what almost all of our light meters are based on.

It seems however, that as of 2004, this is the Normal standard accepted by most Standard Organizations. (SAE etc)
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Relative spectral power distribution of illuminant D and a black body of the same correlated color temperature (in red), normalized about 560 nm.



According to ATP:
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This is further backed up by ANSI and KW lighting.



The thing to take into account is Scoptic(?) emissions, or how the human eye perceives brightness over an instrument that measures energy from light.

Based on what I have been able to read, Metal Halide has no real tool for it if I am reading this correctly from KW tools website.

This is odd. SO doing some digging, I did find a Brand that verifies use within +/- 5% for use with Metal Halide.

57772


So there is indeed such a thing.

In fact, the normal LUX meter is fine for measuring these sources such as he LUX of the light output since it is the Visible spectrum we want to compare. Not the total energy outside of that Visible spectrum most Lux meters are calibrated to work on in that range the human eye can find useful:
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However, I have not been able to find anything about using a cheap meter like I have. And I think that is Very Similar to what was in the video by the retrofit source.

Its not the Exact amount of light that is in question, it is the amount of light we can measure from one light source to the other in relative to the other.
However.. one light source will outperform another, and that should be tungsten halogen based bulbs, but for some reason, Sylvanina and GE as well as other automotive OEM's like Toyota, Chrysler and Nissan all joined the consortium to think that HID sources are better then Halogen for night driving.

This may be due to how the eye see's this kind of light source and its spectrum giving useful information to the human eye.

57774


This is the LUX meter I have.

Out of the box, its not bad. But it has no calibration tools.

Its specs are here. And they are.... Luke warm. Not much data. But it uses a stadard cheap silcon photo diode.
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They are tuned to work in the Visible range for most Environmental conditions.


The point is, as far as measuring light output, or Lux measured, the method is fine. Its just that the Numbers will not be accurate from the point of absolute power of the light in reference to another light source such as tungsten or led.

From the standpoint of the Tool of the Lux Meter, it will still give you a respectable figure of light output in the visible spectrum that correlates to human eye perception.


I have talked about before to use Active lighting as such from a Projector and an LCD to actively to light tracking and focus so that it acts as an anti Glare device as well. But Damn it! They Already are making these systems as AUDI was one of the first to make such a system on their Flagship with LED's.

Moral of this Journey?
The Light output or lux that was measured is still a good ballpark hot dog. Its still is useful, however, not accurate as per say a Lab analysis of Lux output say to be used to get the absolute measure of output between bulbs and light sources used.

But I sure as **** learned a lot about light tools used in the field.. So that's really cool!

Now if we could only figure out WHY the OPTICS are so damn bad on the 3rd Gen, from a expert , that would be super.

Cus as far as I know, the Upgraded (CRINGE) Spyders I have are... Just as Hq said, is just AWFUL to work with.

Everything Hq said about working with these housing is real.

In fact, they are straight up 1990's tech stuff. From the "Halo" to everything else. They are just junk for what you pay for. And I can't agree more that the standard OEM quads are Lacking. But as of 2020, the best option seems to be to use the Spyder housing, and retrofit with an OEM LED solution or use the OEM and retrofit that as you will be able to get lenses and parts for cheap as spyder does not offer this. (I have asked)


I'm just thankful I have good Fog lights, and they work quite well. But are a far cry to what is available from newer cars that's for sure.
 

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They're shockingly worse than even the reflector halogens on my MB G-wagen were (which I swapped for OEM-style projector HID:s on a short notice) and - unscientifically again - aimed at the same spot on a wall against the ancient, 250k mile -worn, faded and almost sandblasted reflector D2R:s of my Volvo XC70, you have hard time trying to tell whether they're even on or not.
I have to admit, I have heard this from more people about the 3rd gen vans. I have never heard of this being even mentioned from other car makes.

Its a shame they never fixed this in the last of the 2 year run. But thankfully, you can drop in Projector housing inside the units. Still a PAIN in the ass, but it gets you 95% of the way there. For everything else, there are Auxiliary lights that can do the job so you can see at night.

What kills me is that even with really good Bulbs like the ones form Morimoto? the spyders put out light so people can see you, but the Sypder projector still STILL SUCKS! And so does the Chinese Polycarbonate lens. Mine have all started the Spider cracks.

If you are going to use the Spyders? Make sure to use the LED bulbs if you can. It seems they degrade very fast with the UV from the bulbs.
 

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This is the LUX meter I have.

Out of the box, its not bad. But it has no calibration tools.
I have a fairly basic Mastech MS8000-series lux meter but I don't use it much, mainly because devices in this price bracket can be a bit inaccurate as you described.

I do have access to calibrated, certification lab quality headlight analyzer with full pattern/brightness/spectrum analysis capabilities but my friend who has it at his inspection station is some 100mi away, so it's a bit of a chore to drive there every time you want to check something.
Now if we could only figure out WHY the OPTICS are so damn bad on the 3rd Gen, from a expert , that would be super.
I'm by no means an expert but the baseline factors are rather obvious. The reflector is small, with something like 70-80cm² of reflective surface on coated, injection molded plastic. Geometrically it's abysmal and the light pattern is far from uniform. Polycarbonate "glass" is small and pretty bad to start with and susceptible to UV degradation. It's a recipe for disaster.

I could've taken the reflector to high def 3D measuring but I can't be bothered. It's obvious that it's bad and there's nothing that can be done to remedy it, short of ditching the reflector altogether.
[Spyders]
In fact, they are straight up 1990's tech stuff. From the "Halo" to everything else. They are just junk for what you pay for. And I can't agree more that the standard OEM quads are Lacking. But as of 2020, the best option seems to be to use the Spyder housing, and retrofit with an OEM LED solution or use the OEM and retrofit that as you will be able to get lenses and parts for cheap as spyder does not offer this. (I have asked)
I have a pair of Spyders disassembled on my desk right now. Their H1 projector modules are the worst I've seen and the (approximately) 60x65mm bolt pattern to molded prongs in the housing isn't compatible with any known, decent projector module. The plastic is so soft that it's difficult to work with and has a greasy feel to it so even epoxy has hard time holding on to it. The cover/lens is cheap polycarbonate with marginal resistance to heat.

Even if I managed to install, say, Morimoto Mini D2S:s in them, chances are there will be problems with leveling and "burns" to the plastic lens in the long run.

Retrofitting projector modules to OEM lights will work much better, as the housing is much stronger and the distance between projector lens and headlight lens lends itself to better heat distribution and far less risk of damage.
What kills me is that even with really good Bulbs like the ones form Morimoto? the spyders put out light so people can see you, but the Sypder projector still STILL SUCKS! And so does the Chinese Polycarbonate lens. Mine have all started the Spider cracks.

If you are going to use the Spyders? Make sure to use the LED bulbs if you can. It seems they degrade very fast with the UV from the bulbs.
I've experimented with various H1 bulbs. Philips halogens, cheap retrofit and custom manufactured H1-base HID:s. I haven't managed to find a LED bulb that would fit in their cast aluminum bulb holder. By adjusting their geometry, ie. shimming the bulb, projector lens and cutout "shade" relative to each other they could be made borderline acceptable, but after a couple of thousand miles the headlight lens started to show burn marks.

Instead of butchering a pair of brand new DOT headlights for lenses, I've thought about making vacuum molds out of E headlight lenses to manufacture a pair of clear ones out of either acrylic or UV resistant polycarbonate. I really want to keep the E housing for electronic leveling and there may be just enough room for Bosch AL bixenon projectors.

Lacking E/DOT markings on the headlight lens will be an issue come the annual inspection time, but molding fake E-markings into the DIY lenses is pretty easy and will work for possible traffic stops if the genuine E-markings on the projector modules won't suffice. :cool:

Oh well. I've probably grown too fond of my van, a metric crapload of work just to get decent headlights is way out of proportion for what the whole van is worth as far as resale value is concerned. But it's not for sale and probably never will be.
 

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Oh well. I've probably grown too fond of my van, a metric crapload of work just to get decent headlights is way out of proportion for what the whole van is worth as far as resale value is concerned. But it's not for sale and probably never will be.

I'm going to keep my VAN and cars till Retire my Meat suit.

You have to wonder, of all the people in the world doing something original? Let's be honest here. That number could fit in an average home gathering during Christmas.

I would rather do something worthwhile with my life then be like EVERYONE ELSE. Besides. I would rather have a Car that can't be Hacked or controlled by someone else.

That's a pretty powerful reason to hold on to your old car. I already keep enough electronics on board for anyone to find me or track me. But I'd rather have a Vehicle that can have not only parts, but be able to get anything I need for it at a drop of a hat. Even a Full rebuild of the entire VAN.

========


I hear what you are saying about the Lenses. But I have to imagine that if people can make Bongs out of glass? You can make a Glass lens. Sure it won't be as tough as Plastic lenses. But I don't plan to have many visits with Baseball bats.

The fact the Spyders are around $250 bucks a pair, tells me I can do better. And I agree the OEM style housings are the way to go.

Now for our next Project Hq? Lets build a Leaf blower with a Turbine engine. I can't think of a Better Application for a Turbine engine. When one gets powerful enough to almost blow me over? That's when I will be satisfied!

I wish Briggs or Kohler would make a mass produced Turbine engine that was cheap enough where you could drop it into a Leaf Blower. I can't Imagine a better engine for the job.
 

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I've got a tackle box full of LEDs, everything from UVB to 100w chips, and I've soldered thousands of them. I probably have 20 different lenses, in another box, and I've spent hundreds of hours trying to research and figure them out. The most important thing that I've learned, is that I'm a lot dumber than I originally thought, and that it requires a collosal amount of math and engineering to do something like design a remotely functional headlight beam.

The headlight argument for me will always be that I should not be blinding other drivers. I'm always tempted to follow someone and take a baseball bat to their headlights when they're too bright, improperly adjusted, or inconsiderately have highbeams on, and it negatively impacts my ability to safely drive.


If you can modify them without risking everybody else's lives, go for it. Otherwise, I implore you to leave the engineering to engineers.
 

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I would rather do something worthwhile with my life then be like EVERYONE ELSE. Besides. I would rather have a Car that can't be Hacked or controlled by someone else.
[...]
I hear what you are saying about the Lenses. But I have to imagine that if people can make Bongs out of glass? You can make a Glass lens. Sure it won't be as tough as Plastic lenses. But I don't plan to have many visits with Baseball bats.
Glass would indeed be ideal. An accurate mold from OEM plastic for forming an optically neutral, tempered glass replacement is probably the ultimate housing to install a high-end bi-xenon/bi-led module in. Clear acrylic or polycarbonate is a close second, even though they do deteriorate a bit faster than glass.

Now for our next Project Hq? Lets build a Leaf blower with a Turbine engine. I can't think of a Better Application for a Turbine engine. When one gets powerful enough to almost blow me over? That's when I will be satisfied!
A full port/polish job for a Brigs & Stratton side valve lawnmower engine has already been done, a comprehensive "140hp+" propshaft power rebuild for a vintage Evinrude 90hp crossflow V4 is underway and a bunch of projects have piled up next to the SMD soldering station, but if there's a serviceable turbofan engine somewhere it would certainly be interesting to rebuild one and mount it on a trailer to blow all loose debris from my yard to the next area code. :p
(Spare time afforded by this covid-thingy is eventually about to wreak some havoc...)

Honestly, I'd like to experiment with forced induction of a beefed-up (rods, pistons) 3.3/3.8 or a DOHC 4.0 swap, but that would IMO be a bit much for the old workhorse.
The most important thing that I've learned, is that I'm a lot dumber than I originally thought, and that it requires a collosal amount of math and engineering to do something like design a remotely functional headlight beam.
[...]
If you can modify them without risking everybody else's lives, go for it. Otherwise, I implore you to leave the engineering to engineers.
The point of all is optimizing light distribution and reducing - if not eliminating - glare, without messing with the original engineering that has gone into the designs. Mostly just figuring out details that manufacturers aren't willing to publish (the difference between $200 Hella bi-halogen and $700 bi-xenon is literally just the bulb base, all other parts being 1:1 identical, as proven in 3D measurement lab), as well as fine-tuning the tolerances manufacturers can't be bothered to.

I agree wholeheartedly, even moderate glare and blinding oncoming traffic with low beams is a massive no-no. High beams are a bit different, not to be used when there's other traffic on the road at all, and there's no real upper limit to what's practical and feasible. Most of my current high beam setups are blindingly bright up to a 1-1½ miles so there's a fair bit of responsibility in using them.

Then again, when you're driving 100-200 mile stretches of unlit roads in the middle of the night (cue in hunting season) with 0-5 oncoming vehicles in a timespan of 1.5-3 hours, there's a distinct advantage in having several hundreds of watts of HID/LED high beam lighting at your disposal. Especially when there's a lot of wildlife around, anywhere from moose to semi-domesticated reindeer that are drawn to (salted) roads in the dead of winter.
 

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3rd Gen Plebeian
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Glass would indeed be ideal. An accurate mold from OEM plastic for forming an optically neutral, tempered glass replacement is probably the ultimate housing to install a high-end bi-xenon/bi-led module in. Clear acrylic or polycarbonate is a close second, even though they do deteriorate a bit faster than glass.


A full port/polish job for a Brigs & Stratton side valve lawnmower engine has already been done, a comprehensive "140hp+" propshaft power rebuild for a vintage Evinrude 90hp crossflow V4 is underway and a bunch of projects have piled up next to the SMD soldering station, but if there's a serviceable turbofan engine somewhere it would certainly be interesting to rebuild one and mount it on a trailer to blow all loose debris from my yard to the next area code. :p
(Spare time afforded by this covid-thingy is eventually about to wreak some havoc...)

Honestly, I'd like to experiment with forced induction of a beefed-up (rods, pistons) 3.3/3.8 or a DOHC 4.0 swap, but that would IMO be a bit much for the old workhorse.

The point of all is optimizing light distribution and reducing - if not eliminating - glare, without messing with the original engineering that has gone into the designs. Mostly just figuring out details that manufacturers aren't willing to publish (the difference between $200 Hella bi-halogen and $700 bi-xenon is literally just the bulb base, all other parts being 1:1 identical, as proven in 3D measurement lab), as well as fine-tuning the tolerances manufacturers can't be bothered to.

I agree wholeheartedly, even moderate glare and blinding oncoming traffic with low beams is a massive no-no. High beams are a bit different, not to be used when there's other traffic on the road at all, and there's no real upper limit to what's practical and feasible. Most of my current high beam setups are blindingly bright up to a 1-1½ miles so there's a fair bit of responsibility in using them.

Then again, when you're driving 100-200 mile stretches of unlit roads in the middle of the night (cue in hunting season) with 0-5 oncoming vehicles in a timespan of 1.5-3 hours, there's a distinct advantage in having several hundreds of watts of HID/LED high beam lighting at your disposal. Especially when there's a lot of wildlife around, anywhere from moose to semi-domesticated reindeer that are drawn to (salted) roads in the dead of winter.
Seriously, the quad beams are a great upgrade over the standard headlight. The low beams are slightly better, but the highbeams are an order of magnitude better.

On the standard headlight, due to the dual filament bulb, the low beam shuts off when the highbeams is engaged. On quad beam headlights, both run simultaneously.
The projector on the high beams also makes for a very narrowly focused beam of light.
I can turn on the fog lights and get a wide flood on the ground around the front end, the low beams are on illuminating the middle of my vision, and the highbeams are blasting a tunnel of light into the distance. Also, you can fit HIR bulbs into the high beams so you are getting twice the lumens for the same wattage.
 

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Oops, I haven't realized the low beam filaments turn off when high beams are on. I've wired diodes to mine so long time ago I didn't even remember how they normally work.

Then again, high beams are not that much of an issue because you can so easily add a pair (or more) of auxiliary lights. With the low beams you're pretty much SOL, as-is.

Like I mentioned earlier, I currently run a pair of aeromotive large capsule HID bulbs with custom 100W (12-13A intake current at 14.4V) ballasts in pencil beam lights. I've thought about adding a ~9000lm LED light bar and - possibly - an array of 4 or 6 of these: https://www.stratusleds.com/module

However, that's not really feasible until I've done something radical to improve low beams, because the lm output difference would be huge between low/high beams.
 

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Fog lights won't turn on with high beams. They can only be activated with the low beams on. The laws here say you can only have two pair of lights lit at the same time, so all cars in North America are wired this way. This is also why those LED light bars are illegal to run on roads.
 

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Fog lights won't turn on with high beams. They can only be activated with the low beams on. The laws here say you can only have two pair of lights lit at the same time, so all cars in North America are wired this way. This is also why those LED light bars are illegal to run on roads.
This may be true for vehicles equipped with quad beams, but my van came with the standard headlights.
From the factory, my highbeams defeat the low beam circuit, so there are only two circuits on if the highbeams and fog lights are on. I had to put a diode between the relays to get a the lowbeams to stay on when I swapped in the quads.

I'll test it tonight, but I'm certain that the fog lights stay on.
 

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This is also why those LED light bars are illegal to run on roads.
Hmm? Ok. In most european countries auxiliary high beams (halogen, HID, LED) are street legal as long as they have E-markings. They're very common in nordic countries. Approximately one out of three or four cars has some kind of auxiliary high beams, usually 2-3 conventional-style lights and/or a LED light bar.

You can't modify E-approved lights or build your own, but quite a few people do so regardless. High efficiency, high reference number halogen lights retrofitted with HID have been a common combination. Price development of legal, 300W+ LED light bars has shifted the market lately, they're gaining popularity fast.

When the low beams are sorted out, everything else will be easy in these circumstances.
 
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