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Discussion Starter #1
Vehicle: 2002 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport

Purchase date: 4/5/12

Miles at purchase: 106,900

Engine: 3.3L V6

Oil: Amsoil 5W-30 Original Equipment versus Amsoil 0W-20 Signature Series

Oil Filter: Donaldson P169071 Synteq

Air Filter: Amsoil EaA 170

Lab: Polaris

Sampling Method: Sampling pump with Hot oil

*Detailed notes below.

Motor Oil------------------------0E5W-30------------SS0W-20
Nominal Drain Interval----------6mo.3k------------ 12mo.5k

Wear Metals (ppm)
Iron---------------------------------7-------------------19
Chromium--------------------------0--------------------0
Nickel-------------------------------0--------------------0
Aluminum--------------------------1--------------------5
Copper------------------------------1-------------------3
Lead---------------------------------0-------------------0
Tin----------------------------------0-------------------1
Cadmium---------------------------0-------------------0
Silver-------------------------------0-------------------0
Vanadium--------------------------0-------------------0

Contaminant Metals (ppm)
Silicon---------------------------15------------------29
Sodium--------------------------4-------------------9
Potassium-----------------------2-------------------3

Multi-Source Metals (ppm)
Titanium-------------------------0-------------------0
Molybdenum-------------------74------------------163
Antimony------------------------0-------------------2
Manganese----------------------0-------------------0
Lithium--------------------------0-------------------0
Boron-------------------------134-----------------101

Additive Metals (ppm)
Magnesium-----------------------7------------------21
Calcium-----------------------1891----------------4060
Barium---------------------------0-------------------0
Phosphorous-------------------659-----------------775
Zinc----------------------------734-----------------917

Fuel Dilution
% Vol------------------------(<1)----------------(<1)

Soot
% Vol----------------------(<.1)------------(0.3 - FTIR)

Water
% Vol--------------------- (<.1 - FTIR)------(<.1 - FTIR)

Viscosity
cSt 100 C--------------------10.1-----------------9.9

TBN-------------------------2.59-----------------3.37

Oxidation---------------------11-------------------55

Nitration---------------------10-------------------14

Particle Count (Pore Blockage)
ISO Code based 4/6/14-------17/17/14---------------N/A
>4 --------------------------------1214-----------------N/A
>6---------------------------------661------------------N/A
>10--------------------------------246------------------N/A
>14--------------------------------112------------------N/A
>21---------------------------------38-------------------N/A
>38----------------------------------5-------------------N/A
>70----------------------------------0-------------------N/A
>100---------------------------------0-------------------N/A

*Detailed notes:

4/11/2012 at 106,962 miles: Oil, Oil Filter, Air Filter. Amsoil OE 5W-30 Motor Oil (Drain interval: 6 months/2,888 miles)

10/11/2012 at 109,850 miles: oil change only. Amsoil OE 5w-30 Motor Oil (Drain interval: 6 months/3,298 miles [oil] 12 months/6189 [filter])

3/12/2013 at 112,515 miles: Used Oil Analysis with ISO particle count. Lab: Polaris Labs (Sample interval: 5 months/2665 miles)

4/23/2013 at 113,148 miles: Oil and oil filter change. Amsoil SS 0W-20 Motor Oil. Note: At time of oil change, replaced oil pan gasket and sealed with Permatex Ultra Black in corners. (Drain interval: 12 months/4,809 miles)

11/27/2013 at 115,729 miles: Added 7oz. make-up oil (7 months/2,581 miles)

4/08/2014 at 117,957 miles: Oil and oil filter change. Amsoil SS 0W-20 Motor Oil. Note: 1 quart low at oil change. (Drain interval: 12 months/5,297 miles)

10/29/2014 at 121,258 miles: Add 15oz. make-up oil (6 months/3,301 miles)

2/11/2015 at 122,768 miles: Add 16 oz. make-up oil (10 months/4,811 miles)

3/17/2015 at 123,151 miles: Used Oil Analysis. Lab: Polaris Labs, (Sample interval: 11 months/5,194 miles)

3/24/2015 at 123,254 miles: Oil and Oil Filter change. Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 PurePlus.(Sample interval: pending)

Typical Driving Habits: I live in a smaller city. Can get to everywhere I need to go within a five mile radius or less. Other than a couple out of town trips per year, very little highway miles. Ambient temperature can range between 0 (F) to 105 (F). Payload typically consists of a family of four. No hitch, no towing ever. Lots of hills and steep grades.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not bad, I prefer the Blackstone reports, since they have a summary.
Hopefully they give you a sheet that explains what some of this means

I did find this:
How to Read the POLARIS Oil Analysis Report
http://www.hollonoil.com/PDF/HowToOilRep.pdf

Here are some good sample Polaris reports as well:
http://solutions.letstruck.com/Answers/View/137/How+to+read+an+oil+sample
I see a lot of people enjoy Blackstone, but I prefer Polaris Labs because they maintain the highest level of ISO accreditation, the ISO 17025 A2LA
 

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Not that anybody is asking me, but I never understood the need for oil analysis, other than if I was having an engine problem, or if I was about to dump a lot of money into the van.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Not that anybody is asking me, but I never understood the need for oil analysis, other than if I was having an engine problem, or if I was about to dump a lot of money into the van.
A UOA is a cheap diagnostic tool. It could alert one to internal coolant leaks, leaky fuel injectors, intake manifold leaks and other issues that might go undetected. Before trying a one-year oil change or extending oil change intervals one would want to make sure everything checks out first.
 

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I have been toying around with different viscosity oils and brands to see what seems to make the van happy (or unhappy). I'm using Pennzoil Platinum 5W20 right now and have a jug of Mobil 1 0w20 on the shelf for the next fill, though that won't be for a while yet, we're only at 158,000km right now and I want to get to 165,000 so I have a properly long interval (15,500km) for this result. I find I get a lot less lifter tick with the Pennzoil 5W20 compared to the Castrol 5W30, though the Rotella T6 was also quieter than the 5W30 so it isn't simply the viscosity at play here. I also find fuel economy is a little better with the 5W20 compared to the 5W30 and 5W40 oils. I knew there would be a miniscule difference but it seems to be measurable, perhaps 0.2-0.3L/100km compared to 5W30, we'll have to give it a bit longer to get a more useful average.

Here is the latest update on my BITOG thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3479816/Re:_Syntec_5W30_10800km,_11250#Post3479816
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Which manufacturer use Amsoil as Original Equipment?
Original Equipment otherwise known as OE is the name of Amsoil's entry level synthetic motor oil. It's not an OEM installed product.

 

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I certainly have no personal knowledge to contribute on the oil subject, but submit this.
I was on a Mercedes Benz forum for several years. It was run by the owner of a shop
dedicated strictly to Mercedes. This guy had well over 30 years experience with MB (an expert).
His response to oil questions and to synthetic oil was, in essence, what's the point.
He hadn't ever seen a failure with type of oil as the root cause.
 

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I certainly have no personal knowledge to contribute on the oil subject, but submit this.
I was on a Mercedes Benz forum for several years. It was run by the owner of a shop
dedicated strictly to Mercedes. This guy had well over 30 years experience with MB (an expert).
His response to oil questions and to synthetic oil was, in essence, what's the point.
He hadn't ever seen a failure with type of oil as the root cause.
Synthetic vs Conventional, a debate that rages on.

I think it's most telling though when many of the automakers are specifying and installing synthetic motor oil as factory fill. If the automakers can now justify the added cost of synthetic, perhaps there is something to it?

For me and my applications, I'm finding that the high dollar top tier synthetic doesn't justify the cost at $10.15 per quart.

However, in my opinion, the middle of the road synthetics have become very competitive offering good performance at a great value; this at only a slight price increase over their conventional counter parts.

For example, at the big box store, a 5 quart jug of Quaker State Advanced Durability (QSAD) vs. a 5 quart jug of Quaker State Ultimate Durability (QSUD).

Look at the increase in oil performance for only $1.50 more per quart ->

Product--------------------------------------------------------QSUD----------QSAD

Noack Volatility (ASTM D5800)---------------------------------8.8-----------14.6

CCS Viscosity (ASTM D5293)--------------------------------4184-----------5,625

Total Base Number (ASTM D2896)-----------------------------8.5------------7.2

Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270)---------------------------------172-----------162

API SN-----------------------------------------------------------Yes------------Yes

ILSAC GF-5------------------------------------------------------Yes------------Yes

GM dexos1-------------------------------------------------------Yes------------No

Acura/Honda HTO-06--------------------------------------------Yes------------No

Price Per 5Qt. jug--------------------------------------------$21.97---------$14.47

Price Per Quart------------------------------------------------$4.39----------$2.89

Will that $1.50 extra equate to better fuel economy? increased engine longevity? cleaner running engine? Don't know? But to me, that increased performance, on paper, for a $1.50 more is worth it.
 

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I suppose that is one perspective, however, I've never seen any good science which shows synthetic oil of any given grade will result in a real-world improvement in fuel economy.

If anything, manufacturers are using the superior stability of synthetic oil to extend maintenance intervals; many European cars are now sporting oil change intervals up in the 15,000-20,000 mile range.
 

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I suppose that is one perspective, however, I've never seen any good science which shows synthetic oil of any given grade will result in a real-world improvement in fuel economy.

If anything, manufacturers are using the superior stability of synthetic oil to extend maintenance intervals; many European cars are now sporting oil change intervals up in the 15,000-20,000 mile range.
Yes, it is one perspective.

In my way of thinking, synthetic oil would not help much on the maintenance intervals, synthetic oil is not "Self Cleaning", contaminants would not magically disappear,further, I don't believe oil manufacturers would recommend stretching the oil change intervals just because you use synthetic oil (with the exception of Scamsoil, of course).
 

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Yes, it is one perspective.

In my way of thinking, synthetic oil would not help much on the maintenance intervals, synthetic oil is not "Self Cleaning", contaminants would not magically disappear,further, I don't believe oil manufacturers would recommend stretching the oil change intervals just because you use synthetic oil (with the exception of Scamsoil, of course).
No doubt the sure way to get rid of contaminants is to change the oil. No rocket science there. Otherwise motor oil seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Many "synthetics" aren't really synthetics, i.e. from Group IV Base Stocks. Conventional oils aren't really conventional either, being a blend of conventional and "synthetic" (the Group III Base Stock type)".

If you are going for regular oil change intervals, say up to 6,000 miles/10,000 kms with today's Major brand oils, don't worry, be happy, your engine will outlast your vehicle unless it's used in the delivery/taxi business and racks up 300,000 - 500,000 miles in 5 years.

Understanding the Differences in Base Oil groups: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups

When conventional oil isn't so conventional: http://www.jobbersworld.com/march302012.html
The third tier comprises what many in our industry refer to as conventional engine oil. Although today most of these so called conventional oils contain some level of Group III base oil (thus making then synthetic blends), most marketers do not market them as such. Instead, they are positioned and priced as conventional products.
 

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Yes, it is one perspective.

In my way of thinking, synthetic oil would not help much on the maintenance intervals, synthetic oil is not "Self Cleaning", contaminants would not magically disappear,further, I don't believe oil manufacturers would recommend stretching the oil change intervals just because you use synthetic oil (with the exception of Scamsoil, of course).
There are two aspects of oil change intervals which synthetic oil address:
  • Synthetic oil is, by the very nature of the beast, far-far more pure than conventional oil (which is why it is so much more temperature stable), and as such, can hold a far higher amount of contaminates in suspension than can conventional oil.
  • Once again, due to the purity/stability, fewer (and often no) viscosity index modifiers are required to achieve any given multi-grade rating, and as such, can stay "in grade" for far more miles than can conventional oil.
As a test, run your car/van on conventional oil for any given number of miles, send the oil out for analysis, and then run the same number of miles with a high quality synthetic; the results will speak for themselves, the synthetic will show to have much more life remaining.
 

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In my way of thinking, synthetic oil would not help much on the maintenance intervals, synthetic oil is not "Self Cleaning", contaminants would not magically disappear,further, I don't believe oil manufacturers would recommend stretching the oil change intervals just because you use synthetic oil .
What I learned is that "containing the contaminants" is due to the additives, so the A-brands tend to be better at that (better and more additives) so they last a lot longer.
The advantage of Synthetic "base oil" is that it works better together with the additives and keeps its specs a lot longer.
So a good brand Synth oil wil significantly enlarge (double) your Oil Change Interval.
For the last zillion km's ;) I made with several cars I maintain an OCI of 30K+ km (or 15-20K miles) using A-brand Synth oils.

Thats what I learned from many, many oil discussions... :cool:
 

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What I learned is that "containing the contaminants" is due to the additives, so the A-brands tend to be better at that (better and more additives) so they last a lot longer.
The advantage of Synthetic "base oil" is that it works better together with the additives and keeps its specs a lot longer.
So a good brand Synth oil wil significantly enlarge (double) your Oil Change Interval.
For the last zillion km's ;) I made with several cars I maintain an OCI of 30K+ km (or 15-20K miles) using A-brand Synth oils.

Thats what I learned from many, many oil discussions... :cool:
I believe you are also talking (per previous discussions) about natural gas base stock oil rather than crude oil base stock oil.
From: https://www.shell.us/aboutshell/us-media-center/news-and-press-releases/2014/shell-creates-motor-oil-from-natural-gas.html
Shell announced today the creation of the first-of-its kind base oil made from natural gas, the cleanest burning fossil fuel. It is called Shell PurePlus(TM) Technology, a patented process of converting natural gas into a clear base oil, which is the main component of motor oils.
Shell PurePlus Technology base oil is manufactured at the Pearl GTL facility in Ras Laffan in Qatar, a partnership between Qatar Petroleum and Shell. Shell PurePlus base oil is crystal clear due to having fewer of the impurities found in crude oil. The Shell GTL and the Shell PurePlus base oil manufacturing processes have been the subject of multiple patents.
 

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There are two aspects of oil change intervals which synthetic oil address:
  • Synthetic oil is, by the very nature of the beast, far-far more pure than conventional oil (which is why it is so much more temperature stable), and as such, can hold a far higher amount of contaminates in suspension than can conventional oil.
  • Once again, due to the purity/stability, fewer (and often no) viscosity index modifiers are required to achieve any given multi-grade rating, and as such, can stay "in grade" for far more miles than can conventional oil.
As a test, run your car/van on conventional oil for any given number of miles, send the oil out for analysis, and then run the same number of miles with a high quality synthetic; the results will speak for themselves, the synthetic will show to have much more life remaining.
What I learned is that "containing the contaminants" is due to the additives, so the A-brands tend to be better at that (better and more additives) so they last a lot longer.
The advantage of Synthetic "base oil" is that it works better together with the additives and keeps its specs a lot longer.
So a good brand Synth oil wil significantly enlarge (double) your Oil Change Interval.
For the last zillion km's ;) I made with several cars I maintain an OCI of 30K+ km (or 15-20K miles) using A-brand Synth oils.

Thats what I learned from many, many oil discussions... :cool:
Based on facts?

Read this from Valvoline F.A.Q.

3.- Can you go longer between oil changes if you use a synthetic blend or full synthetic motor oil?

Synthetic or synthetic blended oils are not intended to extend oil change intervals. These oils are recommended for use in harder working engines and to assist with gas mileage, not to extend service intervals beyond what the manufacturer recommends.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/
 

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Based on facts?

Read this from Valvoline F.A.Q.

3.- Can you go longer between oil changes if you use a synthetic blend or full synthetic motor oil?

Synthetic or synthetic blended oils are not intended to extend oil change intervals. These oils are recommended for use in harder working engines and to assist with gas mileage, not to extend service intervals beyond what the manufacturer recommends.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/
Google a little more and you find tons of credible sources claiming the exact opposite.
Consensus is that Synthetic oils extend your OCI by an awful lot (double)

I believe you are also talking (per previous discussions) about natural gas base stock oil rather than crude oil base stock oil.
From: https://www.shell.us/aboutshell/us-media-center/news-and-press-releases/2014/shell-creates-motor-oil-from-natural-gas.html
I use Shell Helix indeed and most of my research as based on that oil. Thats correct :)
 

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The oil companies can't, they just can't, recommend extending the manufacturer's oil change interval, even though they may really, really want to.

I use Mobil One 0W40 in my van, and I also use it in my BMW, where it can go 10K to 15K miles without a problem. Is anyone trying to say that it's only good say for 6K miles in a Chrysler and 15K miles in a BMW?

I think the first use of synthetic motor oils was in piston aircraft engines, which kind of tells you something right there. At 30,000 feet, you want the most reliable oil you can buy!
 
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