[starrynight2331]

Hello everyone, I’m hoping someone can help me with this very bizarre issue.

We inherited our 2004 T&C Limited in September. When we first got it, the brakes squealed and I always planned to replace them (definitely warped rotors, etc). The next issue it had was an OBD II code of P0032 for the S1B1 O2 sensor. The same day, the 09 code popped up for “Hydraulic Pump Circuit Failure”. These codes are from mid-November. Googled both and planned to fix those as well, but we ended up homeless and living in said van for a little while and have been slowly recovering.

We’re now sort of back on our feet, and as of this morning, I pulled out of a parking space and noticed the steering wheel was resistant to turning. A few stop signs later and the problem only intensified.

What happens is, for example, if I’m approaching a stop sign, I’ll start braking, the brakes squeal like they always have, except now the passenger in front feels a rhythmic hard thudding under their feet, and then the car stops.
When I accelerate, the passenger in front again feels/hears a rhythmic, hard thudding under their feet. The car feels like it’s being held back as I accelerate, it also vibrates hard in the wheel area, and as I accelerate, the steering wheel REFUSES to turn the way I want it to. It will either be stuck the way it was when I first began to brake, or it will jerk away from how I want it to turn and I have to argue with it to keep it on the road.

We immediately went to a mechanic for diagnosis. They only had a short amount of time today, so we have to go back on Monday because of the holiday. However, today they found NO additional codes on top of the original two, and they could not find anything wrong with the pump or its connections. They also could not explain the weird “symptoms” the van is having. Brake fluid and power steering fluid were full as well along with our other fluids.

Over the past month we’ve noticed other electrical issues such as the fog lights not working, the seat adjuster sometimes not working right, and some of the cabin lights do not come on when I roll the switch to turn on all interior cabin lights—but they’ll turn on manually or when a door is open. Another thing that started a few weeks ago is that the car groans when turning, mostly when turning downhill.

If anyone has any ideas as to what the HECK is going on with this van, your help is greatly appreciated. I don’t even know how to start diagnosing this.

 

[Carbuff2]

I'd first have the health of the battery checked. If you have the factory incandescent interior bulbs still installed, they will run it down quickly.

If that 09 code is for the power steering pump, replace the PS reservoir (which contains a frequently-clogged screen inside). Don't know if that will resolve the thud issue, but its a good place to start.

Current prices on Rock Auto are ~$13 - ~$25.

There are other possible electrical issues like poor grounding. If you need a list of ground points, see below.

Dodge trike Ignition pulse not working.

I am building a trike with a 2002 dodge grand caravan as the drive train. This was my daily driver for over 10 years. I cut away the body leaving the entire front intact. Removed dash leaving wiring intact. Motor ran fine until I started cutting out unwanted circuits. airbag squib lines replaced...

www.chryslerminivan.net

 

[starrynight2331]

I think I can rule most of that out. The battery is less than a year old, brand new terminals which are still snug, and these codes appeared before the battery died once (we left cabin lights on while cleaning by accident because it was daytime).

And, unfortunately, this code is for the ABS system (Hydraulic Pump Circuit Failure). Has nothing to do with power steering to my knowledge and our power steering fluid is full and looks normal.

I read online that the thudding can be due to loose lugs. Doesn’t really make sense for my case, but if they’re loose and I’m having a worsened brake issue, it might make sense. I’m re-torquing today to 100-110ftlbs. I doubt it’ll work, my life’s not that easy.

I'd first have the health of the battery checked. If you have the factory incandescent interior bulbs still installed, they will run it down quickly.

If that 09 code is for the power steering pump, replace the PS reservoir (which contains a frequently-clogged screen inside). Don't know if that will resolve the thud issue, but its a good place to start.

Current prices on Rock Auto are ~$13 - ~$25.

There are other possible electrical issues like poor grounding. If you need a list of ground points, see below.

Dodge trike Ignition pulse not working.

I am building a trike with a 2002 dodge grand caravan as the drive train. This was my daily driver for over 10 years. I cut away the body leaving the entire front intact. Removed dash leaving wiring intact. Motor ran fine until I started cutting out unwanted circuits. airbag squib lines replaced...

www.chryslerminivan.net

 

[GS21]

If the only ABS code it’s throwing is the circuit failure it’s very likely it’s just a corroded wire underneath the fuse box. Had the same issue. Take a screwdriver and gently poke and wiggle each wire below the connector and see if there’s any that are loose. See 14:20

 

[starrynight2331]

Hey guys, the thudding and loss of power is because of something else. The mechanic somehow missed that I have lost two massive bolts that hold up the subframe*.

Got under myself and took some pictures. Obviously loose metal parts. Someone i know said the issue is that my vapor canister is basically dangling from the center of the car to the back. Not only that, but something that controls the richness of the fuel is completely disconnected. It might not be my O2 sensor at all—not sure—and this definitely explains the crappy fuel mileage. Hope I relayed that correctly—not sure of the names of the parts that I saw and can’t quite remember what I heard over the phone. But that’s why we’re getting kicked under our feet when we accelerate and brake. No wonder we were all confused.

Hopefully the guy I’m seeing tomorrow can figure out how to replace those bolts AND diagnose the 09 code for the ABS. I’ll let him know about the loose wire thing because now I’m wondering if the other mechanic missed some. Will also mention electrical issues. If those issues get fixed then I’ll finally go and buy myself new brake pads and rotors.

Edit: took this two nights ago bc I knew something was loose and wanted to get to it in the morning. Of course something came up and I didn’t have the chance. We lost more than a bolt. If anyone knows what this cylindrical thing is, let me know.

Edit 2: MISSING SUBFRAME/K-FRAME BOLTS AND ISOLATORS!

 

[Valhallalla]

The bolt that is missing is not for your catalytic converter. It is one of four bolts that hold the suspension sub-frame to the vehicle. I'm not certain but in the photo it looks as if that bolt has broken off. The "cylinder thing" is the two halves of the rubber sub-frame mounting bushing.

This missing bolt issue will definitely cause all kinds of thumping and bumping sounds from under the vehicle. It could be causing the steering to bind as you described. This is a major safety concern and needs to be addressed immediately.

At the very least you need to replace the bolt and bushings. If the bolt is broken off the part that remains will need to be extracted or drilled out. As severely as you describe the steering binding concern, I am wondering if the other three sub-frame bolts are all still in place and tight. They will need to be loosened and/or removed in order to fix the missing/broken one.

The item you have circled in the second photo is the vapor canister. It holds fuel vapors from the fuel tank to be burned later in the engine. It is unlikely to be causing you any significant problems. It is not the cause of your P0032 (O2 Sensor 1/1 Heater Circuit High) trouble code.

Again, this is a serious safety issue and you need to prioritize repairing the missing/broken bolt for the sub-frame. Until it is repaired you should be very careful driving this vehicle. Keep speed low and avoid large bumps and so on. Only drive it enough to get it somewhere to have it fixed. Even better, don't drive it at all until the situation is evaluated and repaired. The other problems with fog lights, seat adjusters and interior lights are unrelated and can wait.

 

[DIY Fan]

Please please get the loose subframe bolt fixed. This is a serious safety issue and needs to be addressed right away.

 

[georgef]

Please please get the loose subframe bolt fixed. This is a serious safety issue and needs to be addressed right away.

I agree, I wouldn't drive it like that, I would have it towed to a shop.

 

[ggoose]

I would not take it back to the mechanic you first noted. Seems to me he never looked under the vehicle which is very concerning after describing the thumps and steering issues you noted.

 

[starrynight2331]

Hey! Thanks for using the correct terms I couldn’t remember. That all makes sense. It’s about the same as what the dude I’m going to today said. I also googled a lot last night and did figure out that it’s a subframe bolt. I sat up and told my husband we’re lucky we’re not dead. I’ve never had the insane issues with other cars that I’ve had with this one. It’s made me feel like an absolute moron in the last few days.

I’ll have the other three bolts checked too—always planned to do that for sure. Seems like I’ll be buying this bolt/bushing and an O2 sensor today at the very least. I really did think part of the suspension or similar broke because it has a crappy suspension. I didn’t even think this kind of part could come loose and just fall off like this, so I never thought of it being the reason.

I have a flat $160 to fix as much as I can of this car before I make more money, so unfortunately it’s being driven over, but it’s less than a quarter mile. Unless I drive like SpongeBob we’ll be fine.

We’re DEFINITELY not going back to the other mechanic. I’m calling them and asking them how the **** they could have missed this. I’m a layman that only has some paint/collision certs, I’m supposed to miss things; they’re NOT.

The bolt that is missing is not for your catalytic converter. It is one of four bolts that hold the suspension sub-frame to the vehicle. I'm not certain but in the photo it looks as if that bolt has broken off. The "cylinder thing" is the two halves of the rubber sub-frame mounting bushing.

This missing bolt issue will definitely cause all kinds of thumping and bumping sounds from under the vehicle. It could be causing the steering to bind as you described. This is a major safety concern and needs to be addressed immediately.

At the very least you need to replace the bolt and bushings. If the bolt is broken off the part that remains will need to be extracted or drilled out. As severely as you describe the steering binding concern, I am wondering if the other three sub-frame bolts are all still in place and tight. They will need to be loosened and/or removed in order to fix the missing/broken one.

The item you have circled in the second photo is the vapor canister. It holds fuel vapors from the fuel tank to be burned later in the engine. It is unlikely to be causing you any significant problems. It is not the cause of your P0032 (O2 Sensor 1/1 Heater Circuit High) trouble code.

Again, this is a serious safety issue and you need to prioritize repairing the missing/broken bolt for the sub-frame. Until it is repaired you should be very careful driving this vehicle. Keep speed low and avoid large bumps and so on. Only drive it enough to get it somewhere to have it fixed. Even better, don't drive it at all until the situation is evaluated and repaired. The other problems with fog lights, seat adjusters and interior lights are unrelated and can wait.

 

[starrynight2331]

Hey again everyone,

We were missing two rear subframe bolts and are also missing the center bolt that goes right above the vapor canister. None of these bolts broke off, they literally just fell out. This is absolutely not supposed to happen, it just seems like a Chrysler issue (according to other forum posts, not my opinion). I’ve never owned anything Mopar so I didn’t even think to look for this. (I deeply miss my old Nissan and I despise this car.)

For whatever reason, these bolts and isolators are incredibly expensive to replace if purchased through MOPAR. Could not find these parts at a reasonable price for this specific car on Amazon or the like either. We’re going to a junk yard tomorrow because it’s literally our only option. Thankfully they’re giving us these bolts for free if I go and pick them myself, which I will.

Thanks for all the help. What a mess.

 

[ScuzziOne]

My guess is somebody worked on your evaporative emissions system (including vapor canister) and either failed to re-install bolts or didn't torque them properly if they did fall out.

 

[Valhallalla]

Hey again everyone,

We were missing two rear subframe bolts and are also missing the center bolt that goes right above the vapor canister. None of these bolts broke off, they literally just fell out. This is absolutely not supposed to happen, it just seems like a Chrysler issue. I’ve never owned anything Mopar so I didn’t even think to look for this. (I deeply miss my old Nissan and I despise this car.)

For whatever reason, these bolts and isolators are incredibly expensive to replace if purchased through MOPAR. Could not find these parts at a reasonable price for this specific car on Amazon or the like either. We’re going to a junk yard tomorrow because it’s literally our only option. Thankfully they’re giving us these bolts for free if I go and pick them myself, which I will.

Thanks for all the help. What a mess.

Yes, suspension subframe bolts are not supposed to just fall out. No, it is not a "Chrysler issue". It is highly unlikely that these bolts were fine for over 17 years and then recently just loosened up on their own and fell out. I'm certain that you will find that some repairs were performed in the not too distant past that required loosening or removing the bolts and they were never tightened properly.

Regardless of what caused this problem I'm glad you are getting it repaired. Yes, some parts can get expensive from the dealer. Kudos to the salvage yard for helping you out considering your situation. There are still some decent folks in the world.

Good luck. Let us know how things turn out.

 

[BillGrissom]

Pretty amazing if the bolts just unscrewed on their own. The square rubber isolators on my 2002 look fine. Yours looks like from the arid west where parts don't rust, as looks similar to our CA van underneath. Usually, the opposite is true, you must work hard to loosen suspension bolts after decades. I agree that someone else was likely "in there" and left the bolts loose or missing. I don't think the charcoal vapor cannister system could cause the engine to run bad, unless it caused a vacuum leak, in which case the engine would idle too fast but still probably run OK. An upstream O2 sensor costs $30 if you shop around. It isn't hard to replace if you can get your hands behind the engine and a breaker bar w/ O2 socket. Might have to unbolt the cruise control actuator. Worst-case, remove the wiper tray, then it is right below you.

 

[DIY Fan]

I believe the torque spec on those bolts is 120 lb-ft which is really tight so random loosening and falling out is practically impossible. Very glad you were able to have the problem properly diagnosed.

 

[starrynight2331]

Hey again everyone. Sorry for not replying sooner—I forget to check here and I wasn’t getting the notification emails.

So, this issue has gotten worse. This will be long…

I agree that it makes NO sense for these to have come undone. My husband’s aunt had this car for a year before us and they were there and intact (her husband used to be a collision mechanic for decades and checked it regularly). She also frequently drove this van everywhere and it was absolutely fine. It ran amazingly well when we got it. We are all beyond confused. Especially me—it was VERY difficult to get these parts off of the junker car in the salvage yard. It was a 2003 and required serious elbow grease. I’m 5’0” but fairly strong and it was very difficult even with the torque wrench set at 150ftlbs.

At this point we are suspecting that the people we recently lived with (and no longer live with) did something to the car. That’s all we can think of. They were anything but good people, which we found out too late. Unfortunately they also knew enough about cars to know that this would cause a lot of damage long term. And I wouldn’t have known to look for this, especially because the front passenger strut was already making quite a bit of noise. And they know our new address. And a few other things that would make us a great target. Or… someone else worked on it and this has all happened.

Speaking of that long-term damage…. Yesterday I did a regular oil change and I noticed several things. The oil that came out of the car was normal, but:
First, when the car runs, there is now a very small but constant stream of transmission fluid coming out of the transmission itself. Not the pan bolts or pan. Photo attached. It stops when it’s parked and shut off thank god. Shifting is fine but it’s been struggling to go uphill.
Secondly, it seems that the radiator reservoir or it’s hose has cracked or broken. I refilled the coolant reservoir yesterday and minutes later saw that we’re hemorrhaging coolant when it’s running. It’s not overheating or anything and the radiator itself seems fine though. The coolant seems to be coming from the reservoir location. However, when the car is warmed up, it starts groaning/has a low-pitched whine. It’s been doing this for a little while. I believe it to be the water pump, especially with this coolant leak. That groan/whine is there at idle, acceleration, and deceleration.

Now, I have something horribly stupid to add to this. We had no idea what was wrong that morning and were so worried that we went to a mechanic that a friend really truly recommended because we don’t know this area yet at all and, as y’all know, we’re broke. (We moved from 1500 miles away btw.) The mechanic was 45 minutes away. And I drove carefully but mostly normally thinking it was something with the suspension and/or brakes. (Bad, but not devastating broadly speaking.) Lo and behold, we were sent home with that “inconclusive diagnosis” even though the mechanic test drove the van for 10 minutes and multiple people got a detailed description of the symptoms AND the car had been lifted for about 30 minutes. Then we drove home relatively normally but carefully. Then I realized what was missing that night and posted here.

I have an awful sinking feeling that this car has been irreparably damaged all because we didn’t know and we drove it that far all for the mechanic to have missed it. Jesus, if I had been told or if I had known I would have never driven it at all. I just didn’t know what to look for because this has never happened to me and I only know so much about cars. I’ve only been driving for a year and a half too.

The worst thing is that I got all of the missing bolts and bushings from salvage, BUT all I could get on the frame was the driver’s side at 98ftlbs. The passenger’s side bolt wouldn’t catch the threads and kept falling out. I’m going to double-check what bolt size I pulled off the 2003 tomorrow, but I think it’s supposed to be an M10x1.25 for the passenger. Either that or somehow the hole is stripped which makes even less sense.

I’m literally thinking to sell it at this point. I don’t know. I wouldn’t get much of anything and this is my only car. I am so baffled. We’re just trying to pick up the pieces and fix this stupid thing. Every time I touch it something breaks, and that is so unlike this model.

Video of groaning noise that hopefully uploads:
Link

 

[DIY Fan]

Noise sounds like the power steering pump. The power steering fluid might be low or need to be flushed. You can do a turkey baster method of sucking out fluid from the reservoir and refill it. Do that once a day for 3 days with some driving in between and the fluid will be mostly new. If the noise persists then a new power steering pump might be needed. Noisy power steering pump is only a nuisance and not a safety issue. Make sure to use only ATF+4.

Transmission pan might need a new gasket. Those are easy to change. Low transmission fluid could lead to transmission failure.

If the coolant is leaking from the reservoir those are easy to replace. Low coolant could lead to engine overheating.

Regarding the passenger subframe/crossmember bolt. Either that was the wrong bolt or the threaded hole where the bolt is supposed to screw into is stripped out. You could try removing the driver bolt and try it in the passenger side. If the threaded hole is stripped out it will need a helicoil or maybe a longer bolt used and a washer and nut placed above. If a new longer bolt and nut are used make sure they are Grade 8 or higher.

In my opinion all issues are probably fixable. Suggest finding a trustworthy shop. You can try nextdoor.com

 

[ScuzziOne]

Both power steering and transmission use red/violet ATF+4, so that fluid you see could be leaking power steering fluid instead of transmission fluid... which would make sense if the growling you hear is the power steering pump growling due to low fluid. Power sterring fluid reservoir is more or less directly above that area on top of the engine. Would look around up there to see if you can identify where the power steering fluid might be leaking?

As for not catching the threads, I believe there's a plate with a nut inserted up there in the frame that the bolt catches when inserted. Presumably it's possible that this nut plate is missing/gone as well? I'm not terribly familiar with how that nut plate gets inserted... think there's a slot in the frame somewhere, but you may need to replace the nut plate on that side. Or, perhaps, it's simply out of position? Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable will chime in... correcting me if I've got it wrong.

Check fluid levels for the power steering on the translucent white reservoir up top, just the right of the upper intake manifold.

Check fluid levels for the transmission using the dipstick with the yellow top just to the back-right of that. Transmission fluid should be checked with the engine hot and idling in park... after having gone through all the gear selections once or twice. Knowing exactly where the level should be depends on transmission fluid temperature, but for now just make sure it's in the "hot" section of the dip stick.

Again, both transmission fluid and power sterring fluid are ATF+4, so get a bottle or two of that and top off as necessary... and see if you can figure out where that leak is actually coming from.

Leaking coolant in that area could be coming from the overflow bottle, overflow hose, the radiator, and/or a radiator hose... you'll need to get a flashlight and do some looking around in that area to determine which it is. When engine has cooled off, suggest removing the radiator cap and checking actual fill level of the radiator... and topping off the radiator there as well. If the radiator is compromised, it may not pull from the overflow properly.

Doubt you did a lot of damage due to the missing bolts... should be two more holding things in place just inside of each strut, at the top of the cradle, above the power steering rack, IIRC. Might want to check to make sure those are there... and tight. Now, if they were also missing, then all bets are off!!!

 

[starrynight2331]

Hello all, thank you for being patient with my saga.

Thank you @DIY Fan for saying something about the helicoil kits. I had no idea that that existed and if a different bolt size won’t work, I’ll look into that.

I agree with it being power steering related. I debated for an hour between the water pump and the power steering or both, and because the groaning worsens when slowing and turning, I can comfortably agree that that may be the issue. Since it’s not an emergency, it can’t be a priority in terms of full replacement, but I will try the baster method. It is not leaking at all, however, now that I know more about the power steering pump, the bearing is also grinding a little. I think it’s safe to say it just needs to be replaced, and that the lack of a leak is what’s holding me together while driving.

I’ll check the fluids tonight when it’s hot. I’ve been doordashing to compensate for no one hiring either of us, thus my panic about this car breaking.
EDIT: All fluids are still fine minus the coolant reservoir. Radiator is full, power steering fluid is full, brake fluid is full, just changed the oil and it’s fine, and the transmission fluid actually seems slightly too high which makes no sense, but it is. It was above the textured “hot” bar on the dipstick and had some bubbles. This was in neutral after driving for about 2 hours. I plan to drop the trans pan, thoroughly clean the pan with brake cleaner and a plastic spatula, apply a new rubber gasket with red high temp gasket maker, and install a new filter, and replace missing fluid with ATF+4.

Here are photos (should be about 8 pics) I took concerning the coolant issues. The small (seemingly colorless) puddle by the front passenger wheel is there every day. I think this is definitely a reservoir issue, possibly a failing clamp at one of the hoses, not sure. Like I said, the radiator is full and so I think we can rule that out. That also explains why the van isn’t overheating at all.

 

[ScuzziOne]

This post seems to confirm that the cradle bolt is threading into a nut welded to a plate that is inserted into the frame rail above via a cut-out. Might want to have a look to see if the nut plate is missing on the bolt you can't get to thread. If missing on yours, you may have to get one from a junk yard as there doesn't seem to be a part number for it.

Front Cradle Bolts, Lower Control Arm

spark eroder or plasma cutter.....

www.chryslerminivan.net

Again, I don't personally have experience with this; however, others seemingly do... and will hopefully chime in.

Hose you have arrow pointed to in first and last picture, I believe that is an engine oil cooler hose.

You do seem to have coolant splattered over a large area, making it difficult to pinpoint leak. Do you know if the cooling system is holding pressure... in other words, is the upper hose pressurized when the engine is hot, or does it collapse when squeezed (using a glove to protect your hand from the heat)? System should be holding 14 PSI or better when hot. I'm wondering if you might not need a new radiator cap... that one seems pretty old.

If you can hear coolant/air passing the radiator cap when squeezing and releasing the upper radiator hose, then you definitely need a new radiator cap.