[JCnDtown]

Will try to make this short but as articulate as I can. 2002 Voyager LX 3.3 v6 with 32k miles. Month or so ago started having issues at start up. Acted like it was going to stall out for the first half mile after starting and then something kicked in and would start and run normal for the rest of the day. No check engine light so went into shop and they swapped plugs and wires along with a Seafoam application. All guesses and started a bit better when I got it back. Now when running tach stays steady but feels like it constantly is fighting heavy winds yet tach stays steady. After a few gas fill ups using different stations the milage has now dropped from 15-18mpg to around 10! Looked under the hood and see that the hose near the cntrl throttle body close to the firewall is just hanging. There is a spot right next to it with a male connector that to me and from what I an find on the net looks like it should be attatched to. I cannot see where the other end goes to as it is behind the engine. When I put the hose on the van starts but then immediately shuts off. If the engine is running with hose off and I start to cover the male connector with my finger I can hear the engine start to shut down. With finger totally on it shuts off.

Since I have dropped for 15-18mpg to 10 after it is back from the shop (contacted shop and even took it back for them to see what I am referring to in regards to hose but getting total run around with no assistance) I am thinking this hose may have something to do with it. Never have seen where a hose is just disconnected from something especially when there is a spot right next to it where it looks like it should be attached.

Can anyone tell me if my thinking may be correct and if this hose should be attached and if so what is the purpose of it and where does it go to on the other end?

Couple of pics with the one with hose off and the spot it looks like it should go to is immediately to the right of it where the male connection point is lower and cannot be seen.

Thank you for any assistance that can be provided.

j~

 

[JCnDtown]

Thanks to all for the responses so far. I was able to change out the PCV valve however it still did not make a difference. The ball in the old one was free when I shook it back and forth. When the hose is disconnected from the plenum portion it will eventually start but only when I pump on the gas pedal multiple times for about 10 to 15 seconds while cranking the engine. Tach stays at around 800rpm when idle after coming down from 1200 after about 30 seconds. Again once it warms up after about 5 minutes it seems to start easier for the rest of the day.

With new PVC valve in and engine not starting if hose is connected on both PVC and plenum side any other ideas? The only way it seems to eventually start is if the hose is disconnected and the gas pedal is tapped back and forth while cranking engine.

@Jeepman in regards to Farmers Market.. I try to suppport local independents and the only reason I went to this shop is that I was giving them one last try and being close they could give me a ride home. Have had it there before a couple of times over the years and to be honest the problem always seemed to be still somewhat there or bad parts put in after I got it back. Not sure if they left the hose off on purpose as that may have been the only way they could get it to start after they did the work on it. My guess is that is what they did..

Thanks

 

[JCnDtown]

@Road Ripper...In your opinion should the check engine light be coming on if anything you mentioned was bad? Everything that i have read up on in regards to the IACV is that it does not show the symptoms of one going bad. No check engine light is on which looks like it should be if the IACV is bad or a misfire on a fuel injector, Once running it does not stall but feels like constnt hesitations while driving with no bursts of idle speed when at idle when stopped. Also RPM's are steady at around 800 (never below 600 or above 1000). I know I wrote a lot but obviously something is off as I used to get around 15 to 18mg and now am ony getting a constant 10 along with the start up issue.

I was able to get a flashlight down deep enough to look at the end of the injector wiring harnes and all to me looks good. None of the insulation on each wire is melted or showing any deteriation in the sleeving with wire exposed. I watched a couple videos I could find on the net with bad ones and they all showed that at the end wires were melted together. The harness does not show that and I even was able to pull up a litle more of the main sleeving around them and still shows no damage.

As I mentioned the check engine light has never came on. Even with that I placed my ODM on the test point and it comes back clean.

Apprieciate all thoughts no matter what they are before I decide to take it to another shop and spend I am guessing major $ on it to try to resolve the issue. With little rust on the under frame and only 32k miles on it I am hoping to get it back up and running as I use it for my outdoor adventure activities!

Thank you

 

[JCnDtown]

@Road Ripper...In your opinion should the check engine light be coming on if anything you mentioned was bad? Everything that i have read up on in regards to the IACV is that it does not show the symptoms of one going bad. No check engine light is on which looks like it should be if the IACV is bad or a misfire on a fuel injector, Once running it does not stall but feels like constnt hesitations while driving with no bursts of idle speed when at idle when stopped. Also RPM's are steady at around 800 (never below 600 or above 1000). I know I wrote a lot but obviously something is off as I used to get around 15 to 18mg and now am ony getting a constant 10 along with the start up issue.

I was able to get a flashlight down deep enough to look at the end of the injector wiring harnes and all to me looks good. None of the insulation on each wire is melted or showing any deteriation in the sleeving with wire exposed. I watched a couple videos I could find on the net with bad ones and they all showed that at the end wires were melted together. The harness does not show that and I even was able to pull up a litle more of the main sleeving around them and still shows no damage.

As I mentioned the check engine light has never came on. Even with that I placed my ODM on the test point and it comes back clean.

Apprieciate all thoughts no matter what they are before I decide to take it to another shop and spend I am guessing major $ on it to try to resolve the issue. With little rust on the under frame and only 32k miles on it I am hoping to get it back up and running as I use it for my outdoor adventure activities!

Thank you

ps..I also did go through the wiring harness sticky at the beginning of the forum.. Thanks

 

[JCnDtown]

First, does the check engine light come on when you first turn the key to RUN, but not start it (for the bulb check)? The one in my van is burned out, so if I have a code I wouldn't know it. 😂 If it does, then diagnostic system is working fine and we have a no code driveability problem.

Since it runs better with the PCV hose disconnected from the plenum, that means the engine is starved for air or running rich. Does it idle fine with the hose connected? If not, the throttle is choking off too much air for the engine to run, or the engine is getting too much fuel for the computer to compensate for. When it started and ran fine for the rest of the day, was that with the PCV hose disconnected as well? Makes me wonder if it just runs rich all the time, which could be a fuel injector stuck open (but would make it hard to start because fuel pressure in the rail would drop) or could be a saturated charcoal canister from overfilling the tank (engine sucks the vapors from this, and too much gas in it will make it run rich).

Yes, the check engine light does appear when the key is turned to RUN with out me trying to start the engine, once started it goes out. As soon as the hose is connected it shuts the engine off. Since back from the shop the only way the engine will stay running is if it is not plugged into the plenum. When I say it runs fine I mean it does not feel like it is going to stall and RPMs are not jumping around while driving. When driving the best way I think I can describe it is if there were bursts of strong air coming at you about every minute or so, not just a smooth no issue ride. Not sure about the fuel injector stuck open or a saturated charcole canister. When I fill it up I stop off at the first click at the pump and never have try to over fill as prefer not to have gas hit the side of any of my vehicles when pulling the nozzle out. Will research more about the canister... Thanks

 

[JCnDtown]

You would know something is up. Along with the CEL staying lit - there is a warning chime when you start the engine. I know this because when my cooling fan relay was temporarily disconnected my CEL would light up and I would get an audible warning chime.

Engine light does come on before trying to start it and all lights except seat belt goes off when I just get in and finally get it to kick over.

 

[JCnDtown]

So this morning I took the negative cable off the battery and left it off for a little bit over 15 minutes. Thought may be that the ECM may need to be relearned. After put back on with the pcv hose intact to the plenum the van started and though not perfect was idling around 800rpm. BUT as soon as I pushed the gas pedal down to rev the engine it once again stalled out. Repeated again and same thing happened. Tried a third time and now back to original where it cranks and will not start until the hose is removed from plenum.

 

[JCnDtown]

Update: So just got home from being out all day and started working on van again. Now with the PCV hose attatched to the plenum seems to start very quickly and stays around 800 rpms. If I rev the engine it goes up and then comes back to what sounds like a nice smooth idle again at 800. Sounds much better UNTIL I shift in Reverse and the engine immeditely dies. Cant even get to Drive before the engine again dies out. Try giving it gas with my foot on the brake but once I release the brake and try to put in gear the engine shuts off.

So seems to start much better and idle at 800 but as soon as I put it in gear engine dies out.

Tried again with PCV hose off and will start along with it able to be at least driven but again with hesitation issues while in motion.

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[JCnDtown]

Does it drive smoother if you just floor the gas pedal? This is usually a quick test to see if the injector harness is shorting. They will run like crap at part throttle, sometimes at idle because the engine is using more gas than it needs due to the injectors shorted together. At WOT (wide open throttle) the computer goes into open loop and just dumps fuel into the engine, and if you're going fast enough when you punch it the WOT mixture is ideal and the engine runs perfect.

I had a friend's van act like this, a 2001 T&C awd Limited with the 3.8L. Their "mechanic" has already replaced the plugs, wires, coil and was stumped. The next thing he wanted to do was tear the engine apart and rebuild the heads! I looked up this problem on this forum many years ago, found out about the harness issue and got a good used harness at the junkyard for $5. Went back and we test drove the van, and it ran like crap except at WOT. I pulled the plenum and power steering reservoir off and replaced the harness. Yup, old one had melted wire insulation way under the black fabric sheathing, and bare wires were touching. Put it together with the new harness, fired it up and it purred. We took it for a test drive and it was back to normal. I told my friend to take the old harness to his "mechanic" and explain how it causes the problem, so that he could be educated and help others.

So we now know your check engine light works perfectly, and there don't seem to be any codes - yet. I think this problem can happen for a while with no codes. I know you said you checked the harness, but maybe it's just bad in a couple of spots and not shorting constantly yet? Something is causing it to dump in way too much fuel, when it's running, and the PCV hose being off is compensating for it by allowing more air into the plenum than the throttle body will allow (bypassing it). If it were a leaking injector, the fuel rail pressure would drop when parked and it would be hard to start without adequate pressure already in the fuel rail. You don't seem to have a hard starting problem, so I'm ruling out a leaking injector.

I had tried that a couple of times while driving at around 55 or so.. When I floor it I see the RPMS jack up to around 3000 +- but there is no immediate increase in speed which being the vehicle it is I am not surprised. After a few seconds though the speed starts to increase slowly but have about a 10mph increase I just let off the pedal To me that would seem normal for this van and for the 30 seconds that happens I don't really have time to see if there is that constant feel of surging during regular driving.

While I was looking at the end of the wiring harness where the connectors meet togetherand saw no wires melted of showing any signs of shiners on the wires I also followed the harness cable the best I could back to under the plenum and at no spot it was close or touching anything on the engine. When I sy close it is about 3 to 4 inches away from touching anything that would get hot. No breaks melt spots or breaks in any of the sleeving. Of course that does not mean it may have gone bad but just from a visual look it does not look damaged.

Later in the day yesterday I was able to continue to trouble shoot. Something has changed but not sure why. With the PCV hose attached the van seemed to start up what I would consider normal along with basically idling around 800rpms. If I give it gas the RPMS go up accordingly and then drop down to the 800 again. Now though as soon as I would try to shift into Reverse it does not even get the whole way into the R position where the engine immediately stalls out. Start the van again right up but in N and when I try to put it into Drive same thing happens, engine cuts out.
So after doing more research I pulled apart the MAP sensor and with it apart tried to start engine (this threw the check engine light on after it started so that shows it is dowing what it shouand it started but stalled out again. After putting the MAP sensor back together I started the engine and it did not stall out but ran very rough though this time I was able to get it into gear without it stalling. I was able to move forward and backward in my driveway for about 20 feet but during that short distance it did stall out a couple of times That was it for the day,

This morning first thing I did was take the negative cable off the battery and let it sit for 30 minutes. After reattaching the cable went in and tried to start the van, Check engine light cleared which it should and van started with everything put back the way it should be. Did not start as great as it did yesterday evening but did start within 10 seconds. Idle was up around 1400 and then dropped to the normal 800 after I reved the engine a couple of times. Was letting it idle and after about a minute the RPMs started dropping to around 600 and then it just stalled out. About an hour later I started it up again. Starting again with all attached but now the problem seems to be that anytime I put it in gear and it catches the RPMs immediatlely drop down to 600 and stalls out very quickly after they seem to go lower within 10 or so seconds. If I shift out to P or N the RPM's pick back up to around the 1000 +- range. I did order a MAP sensor yesterday and should be here sometime this week to see if after changing that out it makes any difference. Why things are changing as I am going along is what is baffling me. Like now it will start and not stall out unless in gear with the PCV hose attached to the plenum even after I had swapped the PCV out to the new one a couple days ago.

Thanks again for any and all assistance!

 

[JCnDtown]

Did you OPEN THE FUEL INJECTOR WIRE HARNESS SHEATHING and inspect the wires under it, like a foot or so back into the harness (towards the injectors)? That is where the wires melt, out of sight. The proximity to the rear exhaust manifold and crossover tube bake the wire harness until the insulation melts and wires touch together, firing numerous injectors at once. Left alone, this CAN KILL your ECM (engine computer).

No, I was unable to pull the whole harness sheathing out from the car without removing quite a bit to get to it. I just visually moved it around and from I could see did not see any damage to the sheathing. Still now to me getting a bit weider by the hour! Yesterday afternoon I went out and pushed on any hose I could which nothing seemed loose. A couple days ago I tried to open the oil fill cap and I could not. Never experienced anything like this on my different vehicles through my life. It has the original oil cap and after researching more found that it is what they call a ratchet type when tightening but the valve cover needs to be cooler before you can undo it. Anyway since it was cool I was able to remove it but nothing really looked at the ordinary. Wiped threads down on cap and valve cover and replaced. Go into van, turn the key and immediately starts up and is idling at around 800. Put in D or R with foot on brake and no drop of idle at all and everything seems normal. Drove up and down my 150' driveway in D and R five or six times with no issues. Shut it off multiple times and each time it starts without an issue (engine was still somewhat hot per guage) and now I am stumped that after removing and putting the oil cap back on it could have anything to do with this! Leave it for the day as it is toward evening and will see what happens next morning.

Next Morning ....Engine cold and it starts but with a little hesitation,sputtering, and what I consider a bit of excess white exhaust for the first few minutes as I drive it up and down my driveway. After about three or so back and forths and idle it for a couple of minutes the temp guage starts to rise like normal. No sputtering when I give it gas in park so I decide to test drive it. Showed 75 miles on trip odemeter (gas guage does not work) so went to gas station a couple miles away and filled up. Started right up after and drove for 19.5 miles without any hesitation like I was feeling after back from repair shop. Guessing that the PCV hose being disconnected was the cause of that. Went back to the gas station and again filled up hoping to see a rise in gas milage back to around the 15-18 mpg before it was taken into the shop. Filled up and it took 2.2gal which equates to 8.6mpg which is even worse then the 10 with the PCV hose off yet all seems to be running ok! No idea why if it feels like it is running ok with clean air filter, new spark plugs and wires along with a Seafoam treatment that it is now regestering half the mpg I was getting before hand!! Just curious if you have any thoughts on why milage would drop in half??

Writing this an hour after I got home from above and just went out and with engine still showing warm it started right up and was idling around 800-900 not jumping around and no excess white exhaust.
Will wait to engine totally cools down In a couple of hours to see if it is hard to start. Hard starting,sputtering and feeling like it was going to stall for the first half mile driving before it felt like something kicks in and ran like normal for the rest of the day was the initial reason why it went into the shop to be diagnosed without a check engine light on. Next day after sitting for probably around 12 hours or so hard starting and repeat for the first half mile or let it warm up for 5 to 10 minutes and then ran ok.

 

[JCnDtown]

My mistake, actually looked and it has 35k original miles but still in the same ball park. My parents bought it new in 2002 and converted it into a handicap van with back ramp when my father started having strokes and may be wheel chair bound. He passed away before they even used it for that and basically sat in their driveway as a second vehicle. I inherited it after my mom passed away around six years ago and it also has been a second personal vehicle for me,hence the original low miles. Not flex fuel and having been running 87octane in it all its life until a couple of times I put in 93 right before it went into the shop seeing if that would change anything. Just came back in from again starting it from a cold engine after a couplle of hours sitting. Does not start nearly as quickly when the engine is cold then if it is at least at the quarter mark on the temp guage. Not what one would consider a normal quick start but have to pump the gas pedal a couple of times while trying to start it before it turns over. Once it did it idles ok unless I immediately try to give it gas then it sounds like it may stall out or something is blocking something, same if I start to drive it right away. If I let it warm up for about 5 or so minutes and start to drive it bascially acts to what a normal vehicle should. It went into the repair shop because it was getting harder and harder so turn the engine over with it even taking multiple times cranking and trying pumping the pedal even though it is fuel injected. Now since yesterday it is starting on the first cranking when cold however not right away.

If this makes sense I am actually hoping that the ECM still has not figured out that the PCV is now connected and running off old memory. There is no way even though this is 21 years old that a 3.3. v6 if running normal should only be getting 8 miles per gallon! Add that with the original ongoing problem I am just glad it is not my primary transportation..

I know I said it before but thanks for your thoughts and input.

 

[JCnDtown]

You are correct that it has a modified fuel tank. After the handicap conversion was completed from what I learned later on from my mother is that the fuel guage stopped working when it was returned to her. She nor I use the gas guage as for the most part it only ever comes down to showing a quarter tank was used. I followed up after my mother and the van has a small paper notebook that has documented every fillup and mileage since 2002. That is how I figure out the MPG. Total miles shown on trip odometer divided by how many gallons it takes to fill the van. Old school but is the most accurate.

 

[JCnDtown]

Does anyone know if the PCM regulates the fuel flow any different if it thinks it’s out of gas? On my 5th gen I have a bad float on my fuel pump and it makes the van act up whenever it’s at 22% fuel level or less. However if it reaches that level while it’s in use it acts perfectly fine. The minute I turn the vehicle off it’s a bear to start and causes all types of issues.

Do you own an OBD scanner that allows you to check your O2 sensors and other PIDS in real-time to see if something might be amiss?

No, I do not own an OBD scanner. Went to a repair shop that I have never been to yesterday who had quite a lot of positive reviews from a local forum that I am on for my area. After discussing it with him his best guess at this time is that there may be a vacuum leak somewhere or the air/fuel mixture is off. It seemed like he mentioned a MAF sensor a few times but until I get my tax refund check back I will not be able to take it to his shop to have them look at it. Still trying to figure out what the previous repair shop may have done to cause the severe drop in milage as it was as stated much higher before it went in. I see that Chrysler does not have a MAF sensor but a MAP one which I am just waiting to be delivered from Rockauto so I can replace it.

 

[JCnDtown]

Well replaced the MAP sensor yesterday and van is still having a bit of a problem starting and when it does it sputters and hesitates if driven right after. If I wait five or so minutes where temp starts to rise to at least the quarter mark it acts quite a bit more normal. So that has not fixed the starting issue and will have to see if it did anything to get the gas milage at least back to 15 from the 6 where it was after I got it back from the repair shop.

 

[JCnDtown]

Thanks for the suggestions. Just ordered an ECT so will try to swap that out later this week when it arrives. From what I can see it seems like the hardest part may be trying to remove the power steering reservoir first to get to coil pack and then procede to the ECT under it.