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The real trick is to convince the engine's computer nothing has changed, otherwise, it "adjusts" the fuel flow to "compensate" for the added oxygen the O2 sensor is seeing in the exhaust (thinking it's too lean, so it adds more fuel). The computers keep the "back yard" mechanic from getting more MPG from a vehicle. There is also information on those sites "how to trick" it to give you more MPG with an HHO to assist.
The computer has been programed to save the evironment and not the dollar. Laws require that automakers make it difficulf for people like yourself to mess with it and get better mileage. Environment vs. Money....... The age old question.

I have read about people injecting hot air, people fooling the temp sensors etc..... It does get you better mileage but at what cost. If everyone did it what would happen?

I hope that none of you that are for this kind of activity are voting for Obama......
 

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know how much "money" it costs to recharge 2 car batteries?

about 25 cents.
Assuming that your battery charger is 100% efficient. The problem is that your charger is likely less than 25% efficient. Now you are spending 75 cents. I know that 75 cents worth of gasoline contains more energy that a car battery.
 

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When you inject HHO, or even water injection, similar to the 1970's, you increase the efficiency of the fuel burning, thus reducing emissions. The emissions become almost non-existent with HHO. Now that's cleaning up the air ! ! ! :wow1:

Not wanting to get into politics (No I'm NOT). I don't want $10/gal costs for fuel (Big Rigs deliver everything), high prices at the pump would cripple US.

I'm an "Independent". I Don't Vote for "Socialist" ! ! !
:lol:
 

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Discussion Starter #24
No averkam 25 cents is what the CHARGER consumes to charge the battery and I am not sure where you get your figured but they are over 85% efficient especially on trickle charge. Some are over 90% efficient.

WHERE in the world are you getting a charger that is only 25% efficient? I would throw such a thing away its a fire hazzard waiting to happen.

I doubt you can increase burn efficiency. the only way HHO can work if it works (and I have a feeling it does at least partly) is by fuel replacement. IE your now burning some Hydrogen in place of Gasoline.

Modern engines are shockingly efficient. I mean I get (well got) 28mpg in my minivan with a 3.0 v6 and it can do 0-60 in under 13 seconds. IT MASSES 3600 Pounds EMPTY!!

Thats a really heavy car. then add in all the smog and emissions crap forced on manufacturers (which I do not totally have a problem with but meh) and todays cars get pretty decent fuel economy CONSIDERING those limitations.

My problem is why not make the van 1500 pounds lighter with some aluminum or composites. Why not put a smaller diesel engine in it. I do not need 0-60 in 13 seconds 20 seconds is just fine with me.

The problem is not economy of current tech the problem is NOT LETTING us have the better tech. (mpg diesels battery electrics etc..)
 

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No averkam 25 cents is what the CHARGER consumes to charge the battery and I am not sure where you get your figured but they are over 85% efficient especially on trickle charge. Some are over 90% efficient.
Sounds like you Guys need a little wind power to charge those batteries. Go to a wind farm to make hydrogen, go to a corn farm to make ethanol. It's all about farms. :)
Actually there was a new Government building built in this region a couple of years back with hrdrogen cells incorporated therein, waiting for a huge wind farm project to materialize - still waiting and probably will be for a few more years or decades. The problem with wind power generation is that it needs wind which, as you know, isn't always there.
 

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No averkam 25 cents is what the CHARGER consumes to charge the battery and I am not sure where you get your figured but they are over 85% efficient especially on trickle charge. Some are over 90% efficient.

WHERE in the world are you getting a charger that is only 25% efficient? I would throw such a thing away its a fire hazzard waiting to happen.
OK, so you are going to trickle charge your battery. 25 cents at 90% will buy you 2 KWH of power. That will create (assuming 90% eff on generating hydrogen) approximately 1.7 horsepower hours (a rough conversion and a unit that sounds strange but is similar to KWH in units for better understanding).

Take your van down the highway at 65mph for 1 hour (approximately 25 horsepower hours and 25 mpg) and you will burn 2.6 gallons of fuel. I paid just south of $3 per gallon this morning so call it $3 and you have spent $7.80 on fuel.

Running the hydrogen into the van (assume 90% again) and you have 1.55 hoursepower - hours of energy to put into the van. This will save you 6.2% or $0.48. You have spent $0.25 to get this so your net savings are: $0.22.

Assuming you have to buy all the stuff needed to make this work:
$30 parts
$30 for a cheap charger
$80 for a cheap deep cycle battery
$50 parts to install on your van

$190 total investment

That is an 836 hour payback! Since you are trickle charging your batteries you can only save 1 hour per day so it will take you 2.3 years to payback your investment (if you drive you van 65 miles per day, national average is half that or 32). If you only spend $80 to make it work on you vehicle then you are still looking at a 363 day or 1 year payback. This is assuming that your labor is of no value. Double these numbers if you are average.

Seems to me like a lot of effort for not much payback. Sure my calculations are rough but get all the good numbers and they will be darn close.

Best of luck to you and keep us updated and don't blow yourself or your engine up.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Like I said the cost is nill so why not try? what if I get some of those crazy improvements some people are seeing?

I drive 120 miles PER DAY 5 days a week (I never checked how many miles I drive the other 2 days probably 20-30 miles each) My Commute is 54 miles each way plus incidental driving (going to wawa the store etc..)

I rack up at least 40,000 miles a year on my vehicles.

also 14v times 80 amps is 1120watts and it will take far fewer than that many watts since thats at 14v while the charger is inputing 120v from its source supply. so the watts consumed at 120v will be far far lower. I will have to put a meter on the charger and see just how many watts it consumes over a charge period.

Even using your numbers (far too high) and my hours driving thats 236 days payback or adding in weekends just about 300 days.

and you forget I am not only ADDING power but REDUCING how much fuel I use. Double Savings.

Either way I do not care. its cheap its going to be fun (just got some plates a 5 gallon orange bucket and some nylon bolts and spacers from Home Depot. Total cost $14 I did not really need the $3 pail but I am a sucker for orange :)

I already have the battery already have the charger and already have the tubing wire etc.. from other projects. SO my total investment will be under $20

if it saves me just 5mpg **** if it just offsets my my losses from Ethanol being forced down my throat the pay back time will be. Lets see I get 420 miles to a tank right now if I gain 5mpg back I will go 520 miles on a tank.

thats an extra 100 miles or roughly 100 miles extra PER WEEK at the price I paid for gas this morning $2.599 the system will PAY for itself in just under of 2 weeks.

Thats if it works of course.

IF it does not work. Oh well I am out $14 and get a nifty hydrogen generator to play with.

I just do not see a downside?
 

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Discussion Starter #28
You know I think I have a better idea. this WILL cost me a bit but will put this to rest once and for all. I am going to go see how much it costs to rent a cylinder of pure hydrogen. I am going to pump that into my engine at .5lpm (about 4 H2 generators worth) and SEE what happens. Removes ALL the wicky variables. No more does this work or that work how much do I need what does it do all that goes away. Just PUMP the stinking gas into the engine and see what happens.

it will tell me if its worth investing the into building and maintaining these gadgets. I mean how much could it costs to get a cylinder of H2 ? $100?
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I know that is precisely the episode that so peaked my interest in hydrogen! I mean they FULLY ran a car on JUST hydrogen! and then they never said another word about it !! Arrrrggggg

I already know I can run ON hydrogen and I know I can not afford to do that but will it make my gasoline car more efficient when added in small quantities is what I want to know Efficient enough to justify doing it :)
 

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My '97 3.3L is dual-fuel. LPG & Petrol.

LPG or CNG is one way to increase your miles-per-dollar/pound, my running costs are 37% lower on Gas than they are on Petrol.
I get around 28 mpig on petrol, 23 mpig on gas (it's only about 80% efficient compared to petrol).

But ..........petrol is £4.53 per gallon, gas is £2.40 per gallon (UK gallon = 4.54 litres). That makes it 16p/mile on petrol, 10p/mile on gas.

I'd like to try the HHO, or H2, by patching it in to the LPG - no problems with the O2 sensors etc as the gas system runs an emulator to make the engine ECU think it's still running on petrol, even though the fuel pump is switched off and the injectors are shut down.

All this talk about charging batteries to run the HHO/H2 seem a bit academic to me, as most HHO/H2 systems generate the gas 'on the fly'
using the alternator/battery on the vehicle. They don't store the hydrogen in a tank, they just produce enough to replace some - or most - of the petrol that the engine would normally burn.
 

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also 14v times 80 amps is 1120watts and it will take far fewer than that many watts since thats at 14v while the charger is inputing 120v from its source supply. so the watts consumed at 120v will be far far lower.
Watts are watts are watts. Volts x Amps. So if you put 1120 watts into a battery, you will be pulling at least 1120 watts from the wall.

Even using your numbers (far too high) and my hours driving thats 236 days payback or adding in weekends just about 300 days.

and you forget I am not only ADDING power but REDUCING how much fuel I use. Double Savings.?
That is my point. You are reducing the need for gasoline to make the power. Now you only need to make approx. 23.5 hp from gasoline.

if it saves me just 5mpg **** if it just offsets my my losses from Ethanol being forced down my throat the pay back time will be. Lets see I get 420 miles to a tank right now if I gain 5mpg back I will go 520 miles on a tank.
Thas is my other point. You will be saving the need to make about 5% of your total power need. So you should see about a 5% increase for the first hour (assuming that you cosume the battery at that rate) That will yield you a 5% more mileage at that rate or 1.25mpg for the first 65 miles. Anything after that will be the same. At your rate of driving you will probably see a savings of about 3%.

IF it does not work. Oh well I am out $14 and get a nifty hydrogen generator to play with.

I just do not see a downside?
I do not doubt it will work. However, I doubt you will see the savings you think you will. Not worth the effort. Try the straight H2 but put it in at a rate that you can make it with a generator to better understand how much savings you will really have.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
thats what I plan to do. the guy in the other forum says his generator draws 9amps and puts out 250ml per minute of hydrogen.

so 4 generators should get me about 1 lpm of pure hydrogen at 40 amps.

with an 80 amp battery (165 amp but going past 50% harms them) thats at least 2 hours of production. My commute is only 80-90 minutes. so plenty of "head room" on the battery.

and no it would run 100% of my commute. When I get to work I will "plug in" the charger and top off the battery during the 10-11 hours I work for the trip home. a 5-6 amp trickle charge should get me back to full before I am done working.

so I am going to put another on off valve on the H2 tank. I am going to adjust the cylinder valve till I fill a 2liter bottle in 4 minutes that should give me half a liter a minute. (best to start conservative) then leave the cylinder valve open and close my secondary shut off valve. NOW the tank will be set to release that much H2 a minute.

Plug it into the car and see what happens. I found out cylinder rental is only $9 a month. I will know tomorrow morning (he is calling me back) what the H2 is going to cost me.

I have a feeling its going to net me a lot more than 1.25mpg (on what do you base that figure?)

at 1lpm thats over 80 liters of hydrogen on my trip. that "seems" like a pretty decent amount of H2 to me. I know on mythbusters they actually RAN a car on hydrogen ALONE (stuck the hose in the carburator and started it up) sounded pretty normal too.

question is how MUCH gas were they pumping into the thing :) I have no idea.

but either way if it does not get me at least 10mpg boost I am probably going to scrub the idea but at least I will know if it works or not.

I might even go out on the turnpike 2am or so so I can have lots of miles level ground no traffic to really get some good data if it proves promising on the too work trips.

I have a feeling my problem will be a timing issue. ie when I introduce the H2 in theory the computer will see a "rich" situation and reduce fuel injection but its NOT rich. I am replacing that fuel with hydrogen but the car will think its rich.

its may retard the timing. My limit on how much H2 I can put in may have nothing to do with how much H2 I can produce (at any cost) and more to do with how far can I do before the computer improperly retards the timing too much and causes other harm. I have no idea. I do not know enough about engines to answer that.

If this works I may need to figure out how to stop the computer from retarding the timing.

Hmm not sure about the watts I think your right its AMPS that changes but in the end when you multiply the amps and volts you get the same watts. I may have just mixed up amps and watts.
 

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I have a feeling its going to net me a lot more than 1.25mpg (on what do you base that figure?)
Energy used per hour. If you discharge the battery in 1 hour you will replace the amount of energy that your engine would make by burning that much fuel in an hour.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
You do not know the energy used per hour so any comments based on energy used per hour are largely irrelevant.

We can detemine the GASOLINE used per hour (if we know the speed and terrain) but we can NOT determine the H2 used per hour IE how much FUEL it will replace. and since Electricity is a lot cheaper than Gasoline I have a pretty big head start.

Actually based on my math I will "half" discharge the battery in 2 hours. My trip it 80-90 minutes. I plug in at work and recharge. Drive home and recharge again.

And again Energy used is irrelevant. the COST of that energy is all thats relevant.

If I have to use 10 KW and it replaced More gasoline than that Electricity costs me then its a net Positive to me. IE I am spending less money.

Now I know its going to be net positive thats just logical. The question is will the gain be sufficient to warrant the hassle of doing it.

I am going to test that.

I am hopeful when the welding specialty gas shop calls me tomorrow I am going to get a nice low price for the H2 cylinder so I can really put this to the test.
 

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My '97 3.3L is dual-fuel. LPG & Petrol.

LPG or CNG is one way to increase your miles-per-dollar/pound, my running costs are 37% lower on Gas than they are on Petrol.
I get around 28 mpig on petrol, 23 mpig on gas (it's only about 80% efficient compared to petrol).

But ..........petrol is £4.53 per gallon, gas is £2.40 per gallon (UK gallon = 4.54 litres). That makes it 16p/mile on petrol, 10p/mile on gas.

I'd like to try the HHO, or H2, by patching it in to the LPG - no problems with the O2 sensors etc as the gas system runs an emulator to make the engine ECU think it's still running on petrol, even though the fuel pump is switched off and the injectors are shut down.

All this talk about charging batteries to run the HHO/H2 seem a bit academic to me, as most HHO/H2 systems generate the gas 'on the fly'
using the alternator/battery on the vehicle. They don't store the hydrogen in a tank, they just produce enough to replace some - or most - of the petrol that the engine would normally burn.
You actually are 3/4 the way there for running straight HHO. You have the adapter / CNG carb that I've been looking for to be able to install a "true" HHO system. You feed the HHO into the engine, via the CNG adapter. This "throttles" the amount of HHO taken in by the engine, based upon foot position (accelerator). Contact me directly, and I'll forward what info you would need to build the "correct unit" for your application.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Grrr good news and bad news. its only $35 for a cylinder of hydrogen! (**** at that price it might actually be practical to just BUY the hydrogen) BUT I need my own regulator (about $100-$150 and for long term usage they want to charge the cost of the cylinder $275 although they would refund this on return of the cylinder I simply do not have that kind of money. He did say they would probably waive that safeguard if I only took it our for 5 or 6 days or so. So I am going to hunt down a regulator (he said a noble gas reg would work with a $20 adaptor) and see what happens.

Its looking promising if I can get past some hurdles.
 

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Hydrogen

Great discussion going on here. Originally - my idea of a science project for my 10 yr. old turned into my dad (brilliant guy) building a hydrogen unit based upon the smack design. He built a few bench prototypes and just put one in his '95 Saturn. He's 72 yrs. old, has a few patents and is the biggest skeptic seeing is really believing. Stated he got a 5 mpg impovement up to 45 from 40baseline. He's truly interested and states he wants to try to push it to 50. On demand setup with on/off switch and amp gauge he mounted in front of stickshift. When you switch it on it jumps baseline idle by 10%. I'm also wondering what kind of results may be possible if when combined with E-85. Time will tell. Truly so interesting. :headbange
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Fascinating man. The jump in idle is precisely what I would expect to see seeing that encourages me!

I may soon have a good vehicle to mess with! I found a buyer for my 300D well kind of. Traded it for an 82 Goldwing Aspencade! Just went and took the test yesterday and got my motorcycle permit.

ITs carburated :) hehehe and those side cases are perfect to mount a battery and HHO or H2 Rig into :)
 

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Fascinating man. The jump in idle is precisely what I would expect to see seeing that encourages me!

I may soon have a good vehicle to mess with! I found a buyer for my 300D well kind of. Traded it for an 82 Goldwing Aspencade! Just went and took the test yesterday and got my motorcycle permit.

ITs carburated :) hehehe and those side cases are perfect to mount a battery and HHO or H2 Rig into :)
Nerys, If you look around YouTube, You'll find a couple of videos showing a motorcycle running on straight HHO. It's not a fantastic bike, but it's functional. Anyway, the video may help you get in touch with the inventor and I'm sure they'll share notes with you.

There's also a fascinating test jig, using a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine, running off compressed Hydrogen, from a tank in the back of a pickup truck. The setup is so very simple, it's too funny and it actually works .....
:lol:

You can also find a video of a guy that was perfecting a HHO run vehicle (scratch built dune buggy). You'll also want to read up on what happened to him just as he perfected it .......

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/
 
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