Posts by Metalguy22
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Agreed. I have exactly the same problem coming from exactly the same area and have done exactly the same things you have except the struts; new sway bar bushings and links, new lower control arms and new tie rods all around. Had the clunk when I bought it a month ago and after all this it still does. As someone mentioned it does not seem like the kind of sound WD40 is going to have any effect on. We are talking major clunk here not just a squeak.
In any case my bushings and links are all new. I'm done spending time and money trying to chase this down. I've given up and going to take it in to a mechanic Monday. If you haven't got it fixed this week I'll let you know what they find.
Has possibilities I guess. What is worth noting is as the original post mentions this only happens bad at slow speed ... less than 20 mph. Mostly from rocking back and forth not so much from hitting bumps. It does that too but mostly it's just the movement of the car that triggers it. The one that always works is to go out a driveway at an angle and get the car rocking. It's like there is something large that's loose and swinging back and forth hitting things. Probably not but that's how it feels. And it is severe enough to have a feel. We aren't talking just a small squeak or rattle here.
I'll check the bushing this afternoon. It was just a cheap knockoff. Maybe should have spent the extra $5 for the Moog ones. I torqued the subframe bushings (I assume you mean those two long bolts on the corners of the plate) to 120 lbs and they bushings looked to squish tight. I'll take a bar and see if I can move them. Thanks.
Most everyone seems to be convinced it's likely a sway bushing problem so I'll get some new good Moog ones today and stick them in. Easy job so why not. Interesting that for the first 10 minutes or so when I test drove it it didn't have the clunk and I figured I'd got it. Then it came right back.
OK. I'll give the WD40 a try. I'm not convinced it will hurt the rubber. I'm probably going to replace them as a last resort anyway. I notice when looking at Moog and the cheap ones I put in they are both an 1/8" smaller than the other good quality one O'Reilly carries. It's also wider. Might do the trick.
I sprayed them down with WD40 and they still clunked but I assume the stuff needs to work its way in. I went about a mile and it actually did seem like it quieted down some. Maybe my hopeful imagination. I'll take it in to town tomorrow for a longer run to get the new bushings. If it gets better at least I know that's where the problem lies. As Stockman's been saying all you are doing it for is a trouble shooting guide.
I'll still replace them then with better ones. I can't quite bring myself to give up and take it to a mechanic yet. I have a list of 22 minor and major items I have fixed on my own on this car. This is the last one. We'll see. I'll definitely let you know.
LOL. Agreed but I've done worse.Oh God, here we go with the electrical tape bodge jobs again.
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And ... one more thing. The instructions I had said you must put the split facing forward towards the bolt head, which I did. I just looked at another thread a picture showing that Doorman says to put the split facing the rear of the car. ???
OK ... so I lubed the bushings with WD40 last night and after a couple miles this morning ... voila, no clunk. None. Zero. Zip. Drove 30 miles to town and back and still good to go. Half of this is over dirt roads so if it was going to do it it would have.
This will likely be TL;DR for many but here is what I think is going on and how I intend to solve it; Since the WD worked that tells me that it is the bushing that's the problem. From another thread Sway bar bushings again or something else. and here it seems what Chrysler had in mind here was for the bushing to bind itself to the bar and rotate with it.
Except what is happening is it is breaking its friction bond (stiction) at some point and when it does it makes the clunk noise. Chrysler apparently figured the stiction would be enough to keep it in place but it didn't work out that way as things settled in and wore. So when you put WD40 in there it mostly eliminates the stiction and simply lets the bushing act as a bearing to the rotation movement of the sway bar. But I can't imagine a rubber bushing acting as a bearing as it would quickly wear out. The WD40 or any lube to fix this is a short term repair.
So what to do? You can as suggested here wrap the bushing in tape or some material to make the fit tighter. Some suggest to "rough up" the bar so it holds better. But those will not overcome the point that the design is junk. Chrysler thinking they could depend on a rubber bushing in the environment that these operate in to dependably maintain the proper stiction just wasn't meant to be. These solutions make the best of a bad deal but I don't think they are what I want in the way of a fix. Note that this problem is everywhere. The comments in Amazon show people have replaced these things 5-6 times.
The solution to me would be to make a bushing that gives up on the stiction solution and hold the bar but allow the rotation of it in the bushing and not quickly wear it out. It seems it may be Moog to the rescue. They make a bushing with a nylon inset that acts as a bearing (Moog K200601). Since I know now with the WD40 experiment that letting the bar move freely in the bushing eliminates the clunk I'm going to install these that are meant to do just that. I also think they could be lubed on installation with some sort of sticky silicon that won't degrade the rubber. Like this stuff: Super Lube 92003 Silicone Lubricating Grease.
I'll post here how this goes. The parts get here Friday.
This will likely be TL;DR for many but here is what I think is going on and how I intend to solve it; Since the WD worked that tells me that it is the bushing that's the problem. From another thread Sway bar bushings again or something else. and here it seems what Chrysler had in mind here was for the bushing to bind itself to the bar and rotate with it.
Except what is happening is it is breaking its friction bond (stiction) at some point and when it does it makes the clunk noise. Chrysler apparently figured the stiction would be enough to keep it in place but it didn't work out that way as things settled in and wore. So when you put WD40 in there it mostly eliminates the stiction and simply lets the bushing act as a bearing to the rotation movement of the sway bar. But I can't imagine a rubber bushing acting as a bearing as it would quickly wear out. The WD40 or any lube to fix this is a short term repair.
So what to do? You can as suggested here wrap the bushing in tape or some material to make the fit tighter. Some suggest to "rough up" the bar so it holds better. But those will not overcome the point that the design is junk. Chrysler thinking they could depend on a rubber bushing in the environment that these operate in to dependably maintain the proper stiction just wasn't meant to be. These solutions make the best of a bad deal but I don't think they are what I want in the way of a fix. Note that this problem is everywhere. The comments in Amazon show people have replaced these things 5-6 times.
The solution to me would be to make a bushing that gives up on the stiction solution and hold the bar but allow the rotation of it in the bushing and not quickly wear it out. It seems it may be Moog to the rescue. They make a bushing with a nylon inset that acts as a bearing (Moog K200601). Since I know now with the WD40 experiment that letting the bar move freely in the bushing eliminates the clunk I'm going to install these that are meant to do just that. I also think they could be lubed on installation with some sort of sticky silicon that won't degrade the rubber. Like this stuff: Super Lube 92003 Silicone Lubricating Grease.
I'll post here how this goes. The parts get here Friday.
Yes it was nice to not hear the clunk. No, I didn't undo anything. i just hosed the whole area down. It took a couple miles for it to work its way in. You might try the WD40 as it is intended to penetrate tight spaces.
I advise you read that thread I linked. It has a ton of information that explains what's going on. In short the bushings were designed to compression bond themselves to the sway bar but for many reasons it just doesn't work for long and they start moving thus giving the clunk. I'm going to go with letting them move and see how it goes.
I had the support plate off to do all this work and unfortunately didn't leave the control arm loose till it was on the ground. Maybe I could go back and lessen it and retighten it. Or I guess I'll just hope for the best.
You should try doing VWs on The Samba. Punk knowitall kids trash talking every minute. This is about as pleasant as I've ever seen.
Ya I got those same Moog K200601 today. I'll put them in when needed. No knocking yet after the WD40 treatment on the first ones I put in but I doubt that will hold. Did you lube them with any silicone grease when you installed them? I got some with PTFE. It seems like they are clearly meant to move and not clamp to the bar what with the nylon bushing and all.
Thanks. This history ought to be a sticky. I don't think there is any doubt you are correct that they were meant to compression grip the bar. It also seems there is no doubt they failed to come up with a design to do that on any sort of long term basis especially once the suspension wears in.
So it seems we are all stuck with workarounds with parts that either mimic the original grip or toss the idea and let the bar rotate. As you say letting them rotate is not likely a great solution since there are various transient vibrations that were designed into the bar that was gripped that you will loose if you let it rotate. But gripping seems an elusive end with after market parts.
So ... for me my bar was polished smooth by the worn our blue poly Moogs so my guess is the cheap ones I replaced it with just weren't up to gripping well. The WD40 I sprayed on it ended the clunk by (another guess) by letting the bar rotate. That won't work for long because either the bushing will quickly wear out of the WD40 will dry out. Still working now though.
A knowledgeable parts guy recommended a different brand black rubber that is wider and more importantly a larger Outside diameter that will in theory grip better. That's my next try. I also got the Moogs with the white nylon insert. The instructions specifically say, "Do not apply lubricant to sway bar or bushings". I don't know what Moog had in mind but generally nylon is intended to be a self lubricating bushing intended to let things rotate. If they clunk I'll try lubing them and see what happens.
In short everyone seems to get this problem and most every fix tried works in the short term and none work in the long term. I'm just going to mess with it till I get something that last a year (ten thousand miles for me) and just keep replacing them. It's great to be retired with time on my hands.
This. The bonding certainly would have some effect on suspension dynamics but we aren't talking F1 here. It's a minivan after all. It seems to me the force of torsion resistance of a rubber bushing on a 1" diameter bar would pale to irrelevance compared to the force the strut links would put on this system. Chrysler engineers apparently would disagree but then they are the ones who got us into this whole mess in the first place.
Seems reasonable. But then the question becomes what do you do with caked on JB Weld on the sway bar in the event the bushing still goes?
Hey, After decades of keeping old clunkers running I know my JB Weld. It's entirely plausible it would work.I was only kidding about the JB Weld for Jeepman's benefit.
But think about this: any lumpy caked-on JBW will grab the replacement bushing better than a smooth bar, the next time you renew them
As much as I hate to revive this thread I'm going to anyway. Last I was here I had replaced bushings with a couple different models and only after I WD40ed them did the noise quit. Sure enough the noise is coming back now two months later.
The one part I have not replaced is the bracket that holds the bushing in place. Someone on Youtube mentioned they thought these wear out till as the bar and bushing work it causes the top part that inserts in the slot to twist and rattle in its groove. Does this make any sense to anyone?
About done messing around. I can replace the whole stinking sway bar, bushings, brackets and bolts for $90 and am considering that. But before I have to take the sub cradle off again I thought I'd give this bracket thing a shot. Again, has anyone traced this noise down to the bracket?
I also ran a test to see if it was really the sway bar that was causing the problem after the rattle came back. I unbolted the bar end of the link on the driver side and wired it up out of the way so then there were no significant forces acting on the bar. i drove it around for a few days and sure enough never made a sound. Put it back on and there was again.
The one part I have not replaced is the bracket that holds the bushing in place. Someone on Youtube mentioned they thought these wear out till as the bar and bushing work it causes the top part that inserts in the slot to twist and rattle in its groove. Does this make any sense to anyone?
About done messing around. I can replace the whole stinking sway bar, bushings, brackets and bolts for $90 and am considering that. But before I have to take the sub cradle off again I thought I'd give this bracket thing a shot. Again, has anyone traced this noise down to the bracket?
I also ran a test to see if it was really the sway bar that was causing the problem after the rattle came back. I unbolted the bar end of the link on the driver side and wired it up out of the way so then there were no significant forces acting on the bar. i drove it around for a few days and sure enough never made a sound. Put it back on and there was again.
We have both been fighting this for a year now. My last "fix" has lasted 6 months. I put new bushings in and liberally swabbed them inside and out and the swar bar too with a good heavy duty silicone grease. Put it together and it still made noise. But stay with me here. I noticed if I rocked the car it would clunk. I had the wife rock it while I got underneath and plainly saw that the strut links were not tight and moving in their hole. Tightened them up and have not had further problems. Note that I am convinced this was both the silicon grease and the loose links as I have done it with new non-greased bushings and properly tightened links and it still clunked.
In short, make sure the links are VERY tight and try gooping up the bushing with grease. Ya ya, I know, the bushings in theory are supposed to grip but I've tried that for months and a half dozen tries and replacement parts and this is the only time it's worked.
In short, make sure the links are VERY tight and try gooping up the bushing with grease. Ya ya, I know, the bushings in theory are supposed to grip but I've tried that for months and a half dozen tries and replacement parts and this is the only time it's worked.
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