[Jeepman]

Chrysler has tried many versions of the sway bar bushings, one even having a fabric type interface bonded to the bushing so it would grab the sway bar. Once the problem starts in earnest, a new sway bar with Mopar bushings is the likely solution, IMO. MOOG is not a "problem solver" either. Probably more of a problem in the salted road areas.

It's suppose to be a compression bond interface based on various sway bar assembly designs (at least 4).

Maybe the hard polyurethane bushings with their special lubricant will work but no compression and additional dampening with those.

 

[Jeepman]

Make sure the links are checked before doing anything. The stud has be held firmly while the nut is tightened to 55 ft lbs or whatever is called for.

 

[Jeepman]

Mopar markets no lubricant for the sway bar bushings. None, zilch, nada! The known procedure is to install dry. There was a time when they had a white paste (lubricant?) between the rubber and the nylon insert. That didn't work either and was only available for a short time.

The bushing is subjected to rotational and linear twisting from the sway bar. The bar is always trying to break the bushing's grip. Increased suspension travel with older worn parts may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's a borderline design for sure. The bushings on my Jeep are original and working well, not even a squeak, and that suspension has lots of travel to it. Just a better design, larger bushings, longer arms, the bushings are actually sitting on the front bumper.

New brackets may help. The problem is really with developing sufficient compression bond, in a neutral position (use ramps, not jacks), between the insert and the sway bar.

Using say Fluid Film, sprayed into the bushing, will quiet it down (while loosening up the suspension), for a couple months (maybe). That has worked for me, but a new bar and/or brackets is likely the best long term solution solution.

One could add a grease fitting and hole to get lubricant to the bar. Some sway bar systems have that.

Sway bar systems:

Sway Bar Bushing Replacement

Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that "neither MOOG, nor Mopar, say to apply a lubricant to 4th Generation sway bar bushings during installation, or any time thereafter". The hard polyurethane bushings require lubricant because they don't flex much. I suspect they change the ride...

www.chryslerminivan.net

 

[Jeepman]

Some polyurethane brands recommend a special lubricant (that they also sell, what convenient). My question is, if regular bushings doesn't need any lubricant, why the tougher bushings needs it?

That's a tricky question. Maybe Marvinstockman knows.

 

[Jeepman]

Jeepman, I just got from the Yukon, where I met Sargent Preston and his dog King, and I'll need a little time to catch my breath.
3. If Chrysler actually wanted to trap the sway bar in the bushing, they would have splined the bushing and the bar.

You didn't read the Post about sway bar assembly designs, referenced previously. Compression bonding does not involve splines, it's totally compression and provides a dampening affect as well as a restraint effect.

1. STABILIZER BAR WITH CONVENTIONAL BUSHING Note: Bar is loose within the bushing, decreasing the effectiveness of the bar.

Also, the roll stiffness of the stabilizer bar with the conventional bushing is 17.7 N/ mm.

2. STABILIZER BAR WITH GRIPPY FLAT BUSHING Note: Flat surfaces on bar and bushing to create grip. Causes stress concentrations.
3. STABILIZER BAR WITH UPSET RING
4. STABILIZER BAR WITH CHEMICALLY BONDED BUSHING
5. STABILIZER BAR WITH COMPRESSIVELY BONDED BUSHING Note: That appears to be what we have.

How's King doing? Must be getting a little long in the tooth?

 

[Jeepman]

Who said this?

If a set of bushings does not come with a lubricant, or instructions to use a lubricant, then they should be installed dry.

Somebody, with common logic, who knows something about bushings apparently

Sway Bar Bushings

Sway bar bushings are small but important suspension components that can be easily replaced. Yet a surprising number of vehicles have either missing or worn-out sway bar components.

www.counterman.com

The Parts Guys at Mopar say to install them dry.

Case = closed as to lubricating them or not during installation.

The problem is that they lose their compression bond over time, or even almost immediately after some installations

The older bushings, without inserts, would develop a squeak as they started losing their grip (dried out or whatever, losing the compression bond). That was the first sign. Then enough wear would happen from the movement, giving looseness and an associated clunk sound.

The insert bushings are different. They can develop a clicking sound as well from the nylon insert rubbing against itself at the slit apparently. Squeaking, not so much, clicking and clunking more so.

The solution, other than new bar and/or brackets, is to tighten up the bushing assembly somehow to get the compression bond back*. That's when the system performs best at providing support for the sway bar plus a dampening effect to the suspension.(active vs inactive rubber bushing)

Countering the weak bond, and associated noise, between the sway bar and bushing, using a lubricant, will not have the same dampening effect, but with regular maintenance of the lubricant, should give a quieter ride.

*Carbuff2 may have the answer. See Post #20.

 

[Jeepman]

Jeepman, I think most of the damping comes from the struts, as the sway bar twist is turned into up/down motion of the wheel/tire. The vast, vast majority of damping does not come from the wee, wee little bushing, but the fat and plump strut assemblies.

This issue has been discussed to death, and obviously the Chrysler design is a poor one, otherwise creaking and groaning would not be an issue!

You aren't reading the material I keep referencing.

Different stabilizer bar systems with bushings were evaluated using CAE tools. It was observed that the systems with grippy flats and/or the upset rings can increase the maximum stress under a given load and hence can reduce the fatigue life of the system. The systems that use chemically bonded bushings and the compressive bonded bushing do not create much additional stress concentration, but the roll stiffness rates using such bushing systems can change.

From my reading, it seems to say that bushings on a regular sway bar that don't rotate are better. It creates a negligible increase in stress on the bar, but almost doubles roll stiffness.

The design is solid and works well on some vehicles, like my Jeep, but Chrysler goofed with the design and their various "problem solver": revisions to the bushings, for the Vans..

 

[Jeepman]

Turn on the sun

 

[Jeepman]

So is this worth even attempting to continue to track down? It looks like even if I'm able to resolve the problem, it'll come back in short order.

I mean, it's driving me nuts, so I guess that makes it worth it to investigate further, but at the same time I'm getting exasperated with the issue and it just started to get cold this week

Although, I forgot that with the cold, the sound gets worse, so that may be another clue and drive me even more crazy.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

Don't give up yet. Make sure the nuts for the links are torqued to specs first, while at the same time keeping the stud from turning, even an iota. Some nuts have a tendency to back off on a vehicle, the end link nuts and the nut holding the pitman arm to the steering box being a couple. I hope you have never had the latter happen.

Here's my advice to Sheldon, back in May 2012, regarding:

The front suspension has been squeaking and knocking. It squeaks when I get into the car and creaks at initial acceleration or deceleration.
The Dealer says the struts should be replaced every 70,000 miles and I have about 80,000 on them. He thinks this will fix the problem.

That's a Ha, Ha, on the struts.

You can read the Thread, but Posts #11 to #14 are most applicable. l composed the overwhelming good advice to stay away from the struts and zero in on the bushings, without any help from marvinstockman or Carbuff2.

So... it makes a coupl'a squeeks?

The front suspension has been squeaking and knocking. It squeaks when I get into the car and creaks at initial acceleration or deceleration. The Dealer says the struts should be replaced every 70,000 miles and I have about 80,000 on them. He thinks this will fix the problem. The new style...

www.chryslerminivan.net

To narrow it down to what's making the noise, the Carbuff2 type of solution would be worth a try if you don't want to use lubricant.

 

[Jeepman]

Two reasons to use a corrosion protection product like Fluid Film:

• if it works then you found the source of the noise.
• as a stop gap solution, it's a good lubricant, penetrates, creeps, repels moisture, will last for a while.

It doesn't swell the bushings or hoses, but can soften some rubber weather stripping that's not oil resistant.

Do one bushing at a time, the suspected one first.

 

[Jeepman]

Once more with feeling, the creaking bushings are not loose or worn. If they were loose or worn they probably wouldn't creak. New bushing creak, old bushings creak, it is just a poor design by Chrysler!

Finally, WD40 doesn't really contain a lubricant, you can just use it for troubleshooting, and if you can get a runny silicone spray, that would certainly work better.

I certainly see the wear marks on any nylon inserts I have looked at, sometimes a scale like deposit on them as well. When they are tight and compression bonded, they don't wear. Initially when the compression bond fails, they may squeak, the ones without the inserts certainly did, a dry squeak actually (rubber on metal). With the insert bushings, clicking may develop first, that's the insert moving laterally against itself letting you know there's movement happening that shouldn't be. It may take a while longer, but the clunking will start. That clunking is likely the tab on the bracket hitting the chassis as the bushing grabs and and then lets go, repeatedly..
Compression bonded Marvin, compression bonded. Maybe they should have been chemically bonded. The bushing is too small for the single bolt with tab design. IMO.

 

[Jeepman]

The single point clamp used in our vans, and for the twist loads applied by our vans on to the sway bar, obviously doesn't work to compression bond the bushing to the bar. Otherwise, the bushing wouldn't be making noise. Most cars don't have this issue, and would have been easy for Chrysler to fix.

That said, wherever the noises are coming from, they are annoying and unwarranted. I fixed my noises, and well that is all I'm going to say on the matter.

They used that design starting in 1996 for the vans and it seemed to work ok on the 3rd Generation (1996-2000), likely works ok in the south as well. I don't see it used on any other models. Great idea award went sour.

My 2016 has the conventional two bolt system. Here's a MOOG bushing for the 2016. What's that brown fabric for?

More Information for MOOG K201876

www.rockauto.com

 

[Jeepman]

View attachment 64048

Friction glue?

I think it's the 2021 Christmas edition of WD-40.

 

[Jeepman]

Or, just tell your passengers:

"Those noises tell me that the suspension is working" LOL

Or compliment them on their high level of hearing, you don't hear anything.

 

[Jeepman]

They say WD-40 attracts dirt and dries out, becomes gummy.
Don't know but it's a very thin, non robust product. Good penetrant, but is it better than Honey Goo?

 

[Jeepman]

That said, while attempting to capture this video, I was in the passenger seat (I usually drive) and notice that I can feel the clunking coming from almost directly UNDERNEATH the passenger side footwell, which is making me think it may be the subframe bushings on that side.

Based on where I'm hearing the noise and feeling it, I'm really thinking it's not the sway bar bushings. But can I do the same test, as was recommended for the sway bar bushings? Seems like the same methodology may not work here.

What's the brand and product # for your sway bar bushings.

Unweight the link and you may find a bad one out of the box.

Check the large subframe bushing for tightness.

 

[Jeepman]

And ... one more thing. The instructions I had said you must put the split facing forward towards the bolt head, which I did. I just looked at another thread a picture showing that Doorman says to put the split facing the rear of the car. ???

You can tell by the shape of the bushing how it should fit in the bracket. The smooth part of the bushing goes against the chassis.

 

[Jeepman]

O K guys, time to quit the back and forth. Just ignore each other, PLEASE.

 

[Jeepman]

Fluid Film, Rust Check, or whatever, mostly Fluid Film, WD-40 dries up and goes away too quickly, have worked on my vehicles to quiet the noise down for a bit. It needs to get inside where it can work. If the vehicle is jacked up, the slit in the bushing can open up (only partly sticks in place, most likely at the bracket) and lubricant can be applied to the interior. Fluid Film will actually creep and eventually find its way there to lubricate.

Good to hear of your success Metalguy22. The compression bond that you have identified is covered pretty much back in Post #24. I think suspension travel, especially with age, may become too much for the system or the bushing needs to be larger, or salt/corrosion takes it toll on the sway bar, or the bracket doesn't have its original clamping force, or the surface where the bracket tab contacts the chassis gets worn, or it's a marginal design, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Chrysler (or somebody), early on had a bushing with a fabric insert bonded to the rubber for creating friction, so the problem showed up fairly early in the 4th Generation, it seems. Worthy of note is that MOOG makes a sway bar bushing for the 5th Generation with fabric bonded to it. I haven't heard of any problems with the bushings on the 5th Generation though. Go figure.

More Information for MOOG K201876

MOOG says on another site:

Do MOOG sway bar bushings need to be greased?
"No grease.
The rubber bushing deforms to allow the sway bar to rotate, stretching like a rubber band and snapping back. This is the best way because it tries to return to the same position always."

Some of the Ford Fairlanes, Falcons, Mustangs, etc, back in the 1960s, would have control arm bushing failures (bond let go much like our sway bar bushings). You could hear them coming from a mile away (squeaking) except on rainy days. They eventually came up with greaseable ones, or grease fittings, as the fix. Keep in mind that the Van's control arm bushings don't have grease fittings, but they have rubber. What does that tell you about how they work?

Control Arm Bushing Preload, Important Information!

Similarly, sway bar bushings should be tightened when the suspension is in a neutral position. I use ramps for that.

 

[Jeepman]

At least as of ~6 months ago, the Mopar bushings were thin nylon/plastic sleeve inside the rubber bushing design. 4743041AE is the part number I used.

Yes, a few years back actually and they have a different part number, same design, for the slightly larger "touring" sway bar (on my 2002 DGC). They may work for a while but not for long in many cases. The OE ones seem to last for quite a while, so it has something to do with the condition of the sway bar and the bracket. For a short time, there was a white paste between the insert and the rubber bushing. Mopar has never supplied, or recommended, that lubricant be used for the sway bar bushing installation

Worth reading. Here's what MOOG has to say about it all. I had no success with their bushings either. I had many used insert bushings and non insert bushings taking up space.
moog-k200601 | Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacements | Dodge Caravan

moog-k200601 | Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacements | Dodge Caravan

MOOG-K200601 front sway bar bushing replacement for the 2001-2007 Dodge Caravan. Backed by MOOG's limited life time warranty! Ready to ship! moog-k200601

www.moog-suspension-parts.com

The OE front sway bar bushings on your minivan are prone to excess wear due to poor designing.

WARRANTY:
Moog Premium Steering Components carry a Limited Lifetime Warranty. Moog R-Series Control Arms, Hub Assemblies, and Strut Assemblies carry a 3 Year Warranty.