The Telltale Clunk

14208 Views 212 Replies 26 Participants Last post by VinceBoomBots, 4 mo ago

BeardyHat

Discussion Starter · Oct 30, 2021

Well, I'm at a loss here. I've had this clunk coming from the front passenger side of my 2004 since I bought it. It only occurs at low speed going over bumps and pits, but it's very loud and pronounced when it happens. At this point, I've gone through all the suspension components I can think of and it's still there. I'm thinking maybe it's a motor mount--never heard a bad motor mount make noise like this--or even a wheel bearing--again, never heard of such a thing, but I'm at a loss.

I've replaced:

1. Struts completely

2. Control arms, including all bushings and ball joint

3. Inner and outer tie rods

4. Sway bar bushings and end links

I thought maybe it was the splash guard for the belts, as it doesn't hold together great and kind of flops around, so I both put new pins in it and removed it completely and the clunk persists.

Is there something I'm missing? Could it be a bad CV? The axles seem to be in fine shape, boots are older, but they're not ripped and leaking grease, but they could just be original to the vehicle? I was happy to replace all the parts I did, as they all needed it anyway, but I don't want to throw more parts at the problem and not resolve it at this point.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

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121 - 140 of 213 Posts

Jeepman

· #121 · Nov 8, 2021

binder said:
At least as of ~6 months ago, the Mopar bushings were thin nylon/plastic sleeve inside the rubber bushing design. 4743041AE is the part number I used.

Yes, a few years back actually and they have a different part number, same design, for the slightly larger "touring" sway bar (on my 2002 DGC). They may work for a while but not for long in many cases. The OE ones seem to last for quite a while, so it has something to do with the condition of the sway bar and the bracket. For a short time, there was a white paste between the insert and the rubber bushing. Mopar has never supplied, or recommended, that lubricant be used for the sway bar bushing installation

Worth reading. Here's what MOOG has to say about it all. I had no success with their bushings either. I had many used insert bushings and non insert bushings taking up space.
moog-k200601 | Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacements | Dodge Caravan

moog-k200601 | Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacements | Dodge Caravan

MOOG-K200601 front sway bar bushing replacement for the 2001-2007 Dodge Caravan. Backed by MOOG's limited life time warranty! Ready to ship! moog-k200601

www.moog-suspension-parts.com

The OE front sway bar bushings on your minivan are prone to excess wear due to poor designing.

WARRANTY:
Moog Premium Steering Components carry a Limited Lifetime Warranty. Moog R-Series Control Arms, Hub Assemblies, and Strut Assemblies carry a 3 Year Warranty.

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marvinstockman

· #122 · Nov 8, 2021

So far I'm one for two. Once Beardy tries it, I hope to be two for two.

Metal, please send me a money order for $5, which is for all the abuse I had to put up with.

Jeepman, I'm sorry, but I just had to say it!

Reactions: 2

Metalguy22

· #123 · Nov 8, 2021

Jeepman said:
Fluid Film, Rust Check, or whatever, mostly Fluid Film, WD-40 dries up and goes away too quickly, have worked on my vehicles to quiet the noise down for a bit. It needs to get inside where it can work. If the vehicle is jacked up, the slit in the bushing can open up (only partly sticks in place, most likely at the bracket) and lubricant can be applied to the interior. Fluid Film will actually creep and eventually find its way there to lubricate.

Good to hear of your success Metalguy22. The compression bond that you have identified is covered pretty much back in Post #24. I think suspension travel, especially with age, may become too much for the system or the bushing needs to be larger, or salt/corrosion takes it toll on the sway bar, or the bracket doesn't have its original clamping force, or the surface where the bracket tab contacts the chassis gets worn, or it's a marginal design, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Chrysler (or somebody), early on had a bushing with a fabric insert bonded to the rubber for creating friction, so the problem showed up fairly early in the 4th Generation, it seems. Worthy of note is that MOOG makes a sway bar bushing for the 5th Generation with fabric bonded to it. I haven't heard of any problems with the bushings on the 5th Generation though. Go figure.

Some of the Ford Fairlanes, Falcons, Mustangs, etc, back in the 1960s, would have control arm bushing failures (bond let go much like our sway bar bushings). You could hear them coming from a mile away (squeaking) except on rainy days. They eventually came up with greaseable ones, or grease fittings, as the fix. Keep in mind that the Van's control arm bushings don't have grease fittings, but they have rubber. What does that tell you about how they work?

Control Arm Bushing Preload, Important Information!

Similarly, sway bar bushings should be tightened when the suspension is in a neutral position. I use ramps for that.

I had the support plate off to do all this work and unfortunately didn't leave the control arm loose till it was on the ground. Maybe I could go back and lessen it and retighten it. Or I guess I'll just hope for the best.

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Metalguy22

· #124 · Nov 8, 2021

marvinstockman said:
So far I'm one for two. Once Beardy tries it, I hope to be two for two.

Metal, please send me a money order for $5, which is for all the abuse I had to put up with.

Jeepman, I'm sorry, but I just had to say it!

You should try doing VWs on The Samba. Punk knowitall kids trash talking every minute. This is about as pleasant as I've ever seen.

Reactions: 1

Jeepman

· #125 · Nov 8, 2021

BeardyHat said:
Interesting. I definitely put mine in while the suspension was hanging. I don't have any ramps, but maybe I'll have to get some so I can tighten things properly.

Though I guess I could support the van on its control arms with the jackstands. I always feel a little uncomfortable with that though.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

Yes, get yourself some ramps. You will be glad you did. You can still install using the jacks but do final tightening to specs while on ramps.

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marvinstockman

· #126 · Nov 8, 2021

Metal, hysterically/historically we've been a pretty sedate forum, as Jeepman (half man - half Jeep) won't put up with a lot of my crap.

Reactions: 2

binder

· #127 · Nov 9, 2021

Thank you!

This seems to have solved most of my front end clunking. (2005 T&C Ltd)

I installed new KYB quickstruts SR4039 & SR4038, sway bar bushings (Mopar 4743041AE) and sway bar links (Moog K7258) a few months back. Was great at first, then slowly got noisy over ~4000 miles.

Tonight, I pulled the wiper tray, and checked the top nut on the KYB struts. Driver side had 3 full turns before it started to snug. Passenger side had 1 full loose turn. Tightened to 125 ft-lb. Quiet as a mouse.

I did not get a chance to look up the torque spec. Thinking if it gets loose again, it looks like I could put a backer nut on there, and use some red locktite to keep it secure.

Thanks again.

ScuzziOne said:
No good suggestions here on torquing the bottom link nut, but you can (well, I did) hit the strut rod center nut from above with an impact by removing the windshield wiper tray to get it out of the way.

Tried a lot of different ways to tighten that strut rod nut, but it's seemingly a pretty big PITA any other way as you have to both hold the center rod still while you crank on the nut. I had worked out a contraption for doing it manually on the factory struts, but KYB changed the nut size on their aftermarket struts so my old contraption was no good and my attempts at a new setup for the KYB nut size was a fail. That's when I finally got ticked off and used an impact directly... with a torque limiting extension.

Anyway, seemed to work pretty well using an impact with a deep well socket and "torque limiting" extension bar.

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BillGrissom

· #128 · Nov 10, 2021

Our 2002 T&C used to give a rumbly sound when going over rough asphalt. After changing the front strut assembly ("quick struts"), I no longer hear such. I thought the noise might have been coming from the thrust bearings above the spring, so disassembled one of the old strut to check. I expected to find the plastic race all broken, like I found in our 1996 Voyager, but it looked fine. I didn't disassemble the other one, so not totally sure it wasn't that issue. I only took on this job because I found one quick strut cheap at an ebay liquidator ($25 I recall), so bought a matching one at rock (~$50). Forgot the brand. I recall the anti-sway bar bushings looked fine. For the new strut, I bought a cam-bolt set to adjust the wheel camber (install in slotted bottom hole). Shop around since ~$25 on Amazon vs $55 at dealer. You might get the camber OK by just jiggering around the strut with a pry bar, but the cam makes it easier.

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nick778

· #129 · Nov 12, 2021

Jeepman said:
Yes, a few years back actually and they have a different part number, same design, for the slightly larger "touring" sway bar (on my 2002 DGC). They may work for a while but not for long in many cases. The OE ones seem to last for quite a while, so it has something to do with the condition of the sway bar and the bracket. For a short time, there was a white paste between the insert and the rubber bushing. Mopar has never supplied, or recommended, that lubricant be used for the sway bar bushing installation

Worth reading. Here's what MOOG has to say about it all. I had no success with their bushings either. I had many used insert bushings and non insert bushings taking up space.
moog-k200601 | Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacements | Dodge Caravan

moog-k200601 | Front Sway Bar Bushing Replacements | Dodge Caravan

MOOG-K200601 front sway bar bushing replacement for the 2001-2007 Dodge Caravan. Backed by MOOG's limited life time warranty! Ready to ship! moog-k200601

www.moog-suspension-parts.com

I have a 2001 T&C that had the infamous knocking sounds (among other sounds from the front suspension). I also had bad inner and outer tie rod ends. I used the Moog sway bar bushings that Jeepman mentions (K200601) as I had tried the blue Moog ones twice before with results that only lasted a short time. I also replaced the sway bar links and the inner and outer tie rods. No more knocking sounds for the time being after about 2000 miles. Van has about 187,000 miles on it.

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Metalguy22

· #130 · Nov 13, 2021

nick778 said:
I have a 2001 T&C that had the infamous knocking sounds (among other sounds from the front suspension). I also had bad inner and outer tie rod ends. I used the Moog sway bar bushings that Jeepman mentions (K200601) as I had tried the blue Moog ones twice before with results that only lasted a short time. I also replaced the sway bar links and the inner and outer tie rods. No more knocking sounds for the time being after about 2000 miles. Van has about 187,000 miles on it.

Ya I got those same Moog K200601 today. I'll put them in when needed. No knocking yet after the WD40 treatment on the first ones I put in but I doubt that will hold. Did you lube them with any silicone grease when you installed them? I got some with PTFE. It seems like they are clearly meant to move and not clamp to the bar what with the nylon bushing and all.

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beat_truck

· #131 · Nov 13, 2021

Besides being blue, I honestly can't remember which bushings I put in my van. They don't clunk or bang, but they do creak sometimes when it's extremely cold outside. I probably should have put some silicone grease on them.

I could be wrong, but I believe the bar is supposed to move in the bushings. Obviously you wouldn't want the bar to be loose in the bushings, but it would be pretty difficult to expect it to be clamped in place and not move at all while having suspension that has a pretty decent range of motion.

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Jeepman

· #132 · Nov 13, 2021

Nope, no lubricant supplied with the bushings, no lubricant specified for the bushings, directions don't mention any lubricant. Just ask MOOG or Mopar. The compression bonding of the bar to the bushing provides considerable dampening in the sway bar system.
Are control arm bushings lubricated? They can fail and squeak profusely.
Aftermarket bushings that are made of hard polyurethane will not grab the sway bar and are supplied with a lubricant. The dampening mentioned above doesn't happen with the polyurethane bushings and stress in the sway bar will be increased.

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beat_truck

· #133 · Nov 13, 2021

I'm 99% sure the ones I used were urethane. I have bought urethane bushings lots of times over the years. Sometimes they included lube, but usually they didn't.

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Jeepman

· #134 · Nov 13, 2021

If a sway bar bushing requires lubricant, there will be a packet of lubricant with it so they say. Sounds right to me. If there was a grease fitting on the bracket, that would be a smoking gun.

MOOG makes two types of sway bar bushings, rubber (black) and thermoplastic (blue), both designed to grip the bar, to add to ride control, no lubricant to be used.
Take a look here, toward the bottom:

moog-k7406 | Front Sway Bar Bushings - 26-26.5mm | Dodge Caravan

Front sway bar bushings to control arm 26-26.5mm for 2001-2007 Dodge Caravan. Moog crafts each of their sway bar bushings to meet or exceed OE specifications. | MOOG moog-k7406

www.moog-suspension-parts.com

They also make one now with a fabric interface (for the 5th Generation).

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marvinstockman

· #135 · Nov 13, 2021

For whatever reason, the Chrysler sway bar bracket doesn't apply enough clamping force to keep the bar from twisting in the bushing.

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beat_truck

· #136 · Nov 13, 2021

I don't think I used Moog bushings. Either way, if they are going to squeak / creak and aren't a material that's going to be damaged by doing it, they needed to be lubed when they were installed.

I'd like to hear it straight from the horse's mouth that they didn't want the bar to twist in the bushing, but that isn't likely to happen. I still don't believe it's the case.

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Jeepman

· #137 · Nov 13, 2021

beat_truck said:
I don't think I used Moog bushings. Either way, if they are going to squeak / creak and aren't a material that's going to be damaged by doing it, they needed to be lubed when they were installed.

I'd like to hear it straight from the horse's mouth that they didn't want the bar to twist in the bushing, but that isn't likely to happen. I still don't believe it's the case.

Better believe it. It's nothing new. 5 different designs for sway bar systems:

Swaybar bushings - CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion

C5 Tech - Swaybar bushings - Ref: SAE 2003-01-0239 Bushing Characteristics of Stabilizer Bars http://www.visteon.com/utils/whitepapers/20_ccwd8.pdf Excerpt 1. STABILIZER BAR WITH CONVENTIONAL BUSHING This is the conventional bushing system. For this system, a clearance fit exists between the...

www.corvetteforum.com

For more sway bar stuff do a Google search using "SAE 2003-01-0239 Bushing Characteristics of Stabilizer Bars"

Compression bonded systems are common. Not many standard type designs with their grease fittings.

A stabilizer bar in a suspension system is useful for preventing excessive rolls in vehicle maneuvers like cornering. Stabilizer bars are supported with bushings by either a frame or a subframe. To prevent the axial movement of the stabilizer bar within the bushing, features like add on collars, upset rings, grippy flats etc. are used on the stabilizer bar. At Visteon Corporation, several new stabilizer bar - bushing systems are developed where such axial movement is prevented by the use of compressive force. Relative merits of different stabilizer bar - bushing systems are compared in terms of roll stiffness and maximum stress on the bar through the use of finite elements

.

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beat_truck

· #138 · Nov 13, 2021

Jeepman said:
5 different designs for sway bar systems:
Sway bar systems (5 types)

Swaybar bushings - CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion

C5 Tech - Swaybar bushings - Ref: SAE 2003-01-0239 Bushing Characteristics of Stabilizer Bars http://www.visteon.com/utils/whitepapers/20_ccwd8.pdf Excerpt 1. STABILIZER BAR WITH CONVENTIONAL BUSHING This is the conventional bushing system. For this system, a clearance fit exists between the...

www.corvetteforum.com

For more sway bar stuff do a Google search using "SAE 2003-01-0239 Bushing Characteristics of Stabilizer Bars"

That still doesn't tell us which ours was supposed to be. And whatever it was originally supposed to be is pretty much thrown out the window when we use non-OE style bushings.

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nick778

· #139 · Nov 13, 2021

Metalguy22 said:
Ya I got those same Moog K200601 today. I'll put them in when needed. No knocking yet after the WD40 treatment on the first ones I put in but I doubt that will hold. Did you lube them with any silicone grease when you installed them? I got some with PTFE. It seems like they are clearly meant to move and not clamp to the bar what with the nylon bushing and all.

No, I didn't use lube of any sort when I installed them or afterwards.

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Jeepman

· #140 · Nov 14, 2021

beat_truck said:
That still doesn't tell us which ours was supposed to be. And whatever it was originally supposed to be is pretty much thrown out the window when we use non-OE style bushings.

The original sway bar bushing for the 4th Generation was a straight synthetic rubber bushing. It was only about 2005, maybe earlier, that the "nylon" insert showed up within the same rubber bushing to try to solve the noise problem. In the meantime MOOG had the thermoplastic blue bushing, which was used with some success.
Perhaps the wear and tear on the rest of the suspension causes a looseness and more travel and is the straw that breaks the back of a marginal design. The factory installed system seems to perform well for years.
At one point, over the years, a bushing with a fabric interface was marketed, obviously looking for more friction (grab). That type of design seems to be coming back (MOOG).
At another point the Mopar bushing, with the white insert, had a white paste between the bushing and the insert. That didn't last long either.
So, the OE bushings have taken on a life of their own. At least three different designs.

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