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The diesel engine is i think a Italian common rail engine 2.5L and 85Kw for an 1997, 105Kw on a 2002.
I also found a 2.4 turbo diesel also with 85Kw.
I just did a check on a few vans licenseplates and got this info if it's of any interest for some of you.:)
 

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The diesel engine is i think a Italian common rail engine 2.5L and 85Kw for an 1997, 105Kw on a 2002.
I also found a 2.4 turbo diesel also with 85Kw.
I just did a check on a few vans licenseplates and got this info if it's of any interest for some of you.:)
YES, it is definitely of interest to me. I was aware the Liberty had the Italian diesel and that was one reason they're discontinuing for a time the diesel in the Liberty. Because they can't get parts in a timely fashion from Italy. Though I would think with DHL, FEDex, and such, they'd get parts faster. And knowing which parts have a high failure rate, they'd have some in the delivery pipeline (?).

Rumor has it they're discussing things with Cummins. Cummins "A" Series w/turbo is just the perfect size to fit, even the mini-vans. I just hope they'll use the 6speed, instead of the 4speed. They'll get more acceptable acceleration from the 6speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
like I said diesels are cool no doubt about that, but face it they are not that popular in the states, so options are limited, so is the fuel, I know, I am originaly from europe I remember diesel was usualy half the price of gas, but that was over 10 yrs ago not sure what the price diference is now, and I remmember buying heating diesel, highly ilegal, but same fuel with a red die, just had to put it in barrels and take it home, and don't get caught with it in the car, that was for a fraction of the pump diesel, not to mention diesels get so much better fuel economy, I even remember an old girlfriend her dad was into the driling bussiness, they had these huge v 16 diesels that burned 100 liters an hour, they were using to dril, we used to buy a bunch of liquor to bribe them and take home all the diesel we can carry, crazy kids, even more crazy times, I had almoast fogot about that, mann you all bring memories.
but back on topic, withouth cheap diesel one does not interest me, but for those of you that still want one your best option is the find a vehicle that is popular here and find a donor, ex those dodge vans, can't think of the name but I remember them as mercedes sprinters just a litle more modern looking and with dodge badges, it doesnt even have to be brand related, pick a volvo station wagon, not that I care much for them, pasat wagon to name another, these last two are fairly available and fwd, brand wouldn't even mater much, a dodge minivan diesel swap would be just as complicated.
nice thing about diesel is the torque, a small four banger will get our van up to speed, not to mention if you get into turbos, I used to have a mercedes 300 5 cyl, but I belive it was rwd.
do your homework youd be surprised, chrysler minivans are not your only option for a donor.
 

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again thanks to all for the help, one other thing, do you guys know of any a604/41te (I belive they are praclicaly the same just diferent years) that came with limited slip, maybe awd, now that would be cool, I am asuming most of these trannyes have open diferentials.
the real LSD for the neons made by Quaife and its chinese OBX knockoff fit inside the A604 and are compatible with the axels

you will need to have a spacer ring made by a machine shop

it will look like this


but this one was made for the 3 speed atx
 
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
atx as in ford? chrysler has a trany called atx too, it stands for auto trans so I guess, but again alain you are the man, so neons limited slip will bolt up with little mods, I asume most of those vans are open dif, now that is definately something i want to change there is nothing worse than geting stuck on one wheel,
let me ask you this much: the diferential tooth count does not influence gear ratio? just the rate one wheel turns compared to another in turns, If even that come to think of, the final drive does though, so these :
differential now
the AWD is either 16/60 or the 17/59 (probably a different ratio in the "sport awd" package with the 3.3 engine ??? )
the 3.3 is listed with 17/59
the 3.8 is listed with 16/60

a 15/56 is listed in the 3th and 4th gen van for the 3.8 starting in 1999

sould not influence the gear ratios.

dam it I am confused again, these are teeth counts for the spider gear? right, doesn't add up I got smth wrong, please elaborate, if you have a beter understanding as I do, sure looks like it,
 

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atx = generic abreviation of automatic transmission while mtx = manual transmission

gear ratio for individual gears are fixed by the tooth counth of each gears
you can't play with that

now the final ratio is made with the tooth count of the transfer gears and the differential tooth count

both will influence the final drive
the transfer gears are inserted in the path between the gears and the differential

now let's do some math
16/60 = 3.75 17/59 = 3.47 15/56 = 3.733

transfer gear now the math are supposed to work on the opposite way
49/47 = 1.043 46/50 = 0.92 50/46 = 1.087

and they multiply themselves

so example A let say 46/50 transfer gear and 17/59 diff = 0.92 X 3.47 = 3.2844 final drive

example B let say the 50/46 transfer gear and the same 17/59 diff = 1.087 X 3.47 = 3.7719 final drive
 

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atx = generic abreviation of automatic transmission while mtx = manual transmission

gear ratio for individual gears are fixed by the tooth counth of each gears
you can't play with that

now the final ratio is made with the tooth count of the transfer gears and the differential tooth count

both will influence the final drive
the transfer gears are inserted in the path between the gears and the differential

now let's do some math
16/60 = 3.75 17/59 = 3.47 15/56 = 3.733

transfer gear now the math are supposed to work on the opposite way
49/47 = 1.043 46/50 = 0.92 50/46 = 1.087

and they multiply themselves

so example A let say 46/50 transfer gear and 17/59 diff = 0.92 X 3.47 = 3.2844 final drive

example B let say the 50/46 transfer gear and the same 17/59 diff = 1.087 X 3.47 = 3.7719 final drive
Gee, This can become confusing, easily. Any way to get the ratio a lot closer to or under 3.0 ?
 

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I see you own 2 3rd gen vans with both 3'3 and 3.8, do you have a tack on them?, can you tell an rpm diference at the same speed between the 2?
Well, I've driven the same roads with both vans for quite a while now. And given both of them are "empty" with no cargo, a full gas tank, and just me in the passenger compartment [all the seats installed] I've found:

With my driving style, starting from a stop and getting up to a cruising speed of about 40-45mph on the road I live on [slight inline.]

1996 Chrysler T&C 3.3L --> Hops to it fine and RPMs peak at about 2700
2000 Chrysler T&C 3.8L --> Needs to be pushed at least to at LEAST 3600 RPMs in order to achieve the same result in the same time.

With my driving style, normal acceleration causes the van to shift from 1st to 2nd gear:

1996 Chrysler T&C 3.3L --> At around 2200 RPMs
2000 Chrysler T&C 3.8L --> At around 1800 RPMs

Even with both vans in the same "empty" state, there is a weight difference of about 200lbs if I remember correctly, which is partially responsible for the performance lag with the 2000. But as you can see, in comparison, my 2000 3.8L is noticeably sluggish in comparison to my 1996. Another way of looking at it is my 2000 drives the same way my 1996 does if it is carrying 7 people.

I've driven a couple long-wheelbase 3rd gen Dodge Grand Caravans with the 3.3L engine and they drive much more closely to my 1996 short-wheelbase than they do to my own long-wheelbase 3.8L.

I've had the 2000 looked at by several different dealers to make sure there isn't a problem, they all say the van's transmission and engine are in perfect running order- but even they admit that they have heard numerous customers complain of worse performance from the 3.8L... not that you could really prove it on paper I guess.

Now I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who will be miffed reading this, who absolutely swear by the 3.8L and couldn't ever be convinced that the 3.3L is superior, but it's just my *opinion* based on my daily driving of both of them.

(I won't lie and say that I haven't been known to specifically drive my 1996 if I need to get somewhere in a hurry. :biggrin:)
 

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the transmission gears are the same between 3.3 and 3.8
the difference in the final drive come from the transfer gear and differential

according to my ATSG manual they are the following
3.3 are using the 49/47 pair also found in all the 2.4 I4 and 2.5 v6 cars
3.8 are using the 46/50 pair in AWD and FWD

the other pair is the 50/46 found in the 2.0L I4 stratus

any pair of transfer gear could be use in any a604

differential now
the AWD is either 16/60 or the 17/59 (probably a different ratio in the "sport awd" package with the 3.3 engine ??? )
the 3.3 is listed with 17/59
the 3.8 is listed with 16/60

a 15/56 is listed in the 3th and 4th gen van for the 3.8 starting in 1999

other transfer gear from past chrysler model
54/59 with 3.0l engine, 49/47 and 58/55 in early 3.3 cars and vans

swapping transfer gear is doable in a drive way in a few hours
Re: the highlighted part. I am looking for a differential for my 99 TC, Limited, 3.8L. Its diff pin or "differential cross shaft" might have moved. So I should look for a candidate from a 99 and later, whose ratio is 15/56?

And 15 here refers to the teeth on the pinion gear--it's on the transfer shaft--which drives the ring gear on the diff, and 56 is for the teeth on the ring gear in the differential?

I'm gonna drop a 4th gen (01-07) differential in the yard one of these days to see how many teeth the ring gear has and how many its pinion gear has. Whereas the ring gear is easy to access to count its teeth, I don't know about its pinion gear? :)

PS: is it true that all 4th gen diffs have diff saver tabs installed from factory to protect the diff pin or differential shaft pin from moving out of spider gears?

NOTE: edited to reflect current understanding.
 

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I dropped the trannies on a 99 Plymouth Voyager and a 99 DGC Sport. Both 3.8 L. The DGC looks like it has a 4th gen tranny swapped in. You can tell that from the diff saver tabs rather than retention pin for the "differential cross shaft." How can those puny tabs stop the diff pin from shooting out, if one wheel is stuck on an icy patch?

Photograph White Automotive tire Light Black


Both ring gears have 60 teeth. I'll append more pics of the two diffs so you can have a better idea of the difference(s) between 3rd gen and 4th diffs.

Automotive tire Sculpture Art Automotive wheel system Helmet


Wheel Automotive tire Crankset Bicycle part Tread


Crankset Automotive tire Gear Bicycle part Rim


Motor vehicle Automotive tire Gas Automotive wheel system Engineering


Wheel Crankset Light Automotive tire Gear
 

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If the only difference is in the differential gears, then the transmission controller shouldn't know the difference as all it has to work from is the input and output speed sensors which are on the input shaft assembly. I think your dash speedometer would read wrong since my guess is it operates off the output speed sensor, so assumes a differential ratio and tire size. For those with the older A-413 3 speed hydraulic transmission (4 cyl vans until early 2000's), the speed sensor is on the right driveshaft, so reads the exact tire rotation speed, so wouldn't be affected by differential ratio.

Are your sure about the "bad engine" diagnostic? Have you checked compression? A poor man's test is to turn over the crankshaft by hand for 2 revolutions (mark w/ chalk) and feel for 6 strong "air springs" resisting you. If you must pause for a few seconds at each to let them hiss down, then I'd say your compression is excellent.
 

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The DGC looks like it has a 4th gen tranny swapped in.
I rebuilt the A-604 in our 2002 T&C 3.8L a month ago. The differential had the retaining tabs shown on the left, so I'd say those are factory. The aftermarket retainers I put in our 1996 2.4L transmission were different, a bit larger and gold chromate, though there could be various manufacturers. I found a youtube where there is an aftermarket differential pin that has a flat to allow oil to flow thru the pinon gear center. Their claim is that crud blocks oil from reaching the inside which causes the gear to seize to the shaft. Seems a shaky argument so I didn't pursue it, since transmission oil will flow thru the tiniest gap which is why they like to leak. Anyway, I didn't try to out-think the Chrysler engineers, though they did flub the original pin retainer design, at least for people who drive in ice and mud and get aggressive with the throttle. I didn't count the gears while in there. The bearings appeared pristine at 273K miles so didn't fool with them, though I did change the both tapered roller bearings on the input shaft just to be safe (proved tough, avoid unless pitted).
 

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My 2000 van has the solid retaining pin design, no metal tabs at all.

That diff with ONLY metal tabs to hold the cross shaft, must be a 4th gen. I wonder if they ever used both the solid retaining pin and the tabs? I have a couple of 2001 transmissions outside that I could look at, but I don't want to open them up and have fluid everywhere.

Earlier than 99 used a hollow roll pin instead of the solid one. They would shear and allow the cross shaft to "walk" out of the carrier and snag the case, and "boom". The metal tabs were offered as a kit to add to those earlier years to prevent that from happening. I've also seen one weld the cross shaft to the carrier!
 
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