[TimWilson]

Replaced the Sway Bar Bushings and End Links this afternoon on my 2005 T&C.

The first couple of photos show the DS bushing compared to the new bushing.

 

[TimWilson]

Passenger side bushings, notice the crack in the raised rib...

I found that my "Side Winder Ratchet Wrench" came in handy for nut removal. Just twist the "T" hand to spin the nuts off.

 

[TimWilson]

Replacing 2-sway bar bushings, 2-sway bar end links, and a set of front brakes took just under 3 hours...

Spent an hour just getting the DS end link off until I used a torch to heat the nuts and melt away the nylon inserts.... Then it became a MUCH EASIER job.

 

[Jeepman]

Passenger side bushings, notice the crack in the raised rib...

I found that my "Side Winder Ratchet Wrench" came in handy for nut removal. Just twist the "T" hand to spin the nuts off.

Gotta love that wrench. Use any lubricant on the bushings? Hope not. :thumb:

 

[TimWilson]

Gotta love that wrench. Use any lubricant on the bushings? Hope not. :thumb:

No sir, no lube..... dry as dry could be!

Just got back from a road test and I can't believe the difference the new bushings and end links made. No clunks, rattles, or other noise from the front end...

Just wonder how long these parts will last.

 

[Jeepman]

No sir, no lube..... dry as dry could be!

Just got back from a road test and I can't believe the difference the new bushings and end links made. No clunks, rattles, or other noise from the front end...

Just wonder how long these parts will last.

The bushings should take you well past 100,000 miles and the links may be good for another 100,000 miles. The link on the left side of my Van is original. Did you use ramps or jack stands for the bushings?

 

[TimWilson]

The bushings should take you well past 100,000 miles and the links may be good for another 100,000 miles. The link on the left side of my Van is original. Did you use ramps or jack stands for the bushings?

Jack stands..... I pulled the end links off first, then dropped the sway bar retainers. I then replaced the sway bar bushing and finished up with installing the new end links. Before I put the wheels back on, I replaced the brake pads...

Tomorrow I may replace the rear brake shoes...

 

[Richard]

Let me see, it took Chrysler 8 or 9 years to introduce a "fix' for poorly designed sway bar links and bushings.

 

[thebrakeman]

As far as lube, I think the need is only for true urethane components. These are so hard, that if they were dry, they would wear quickly as they can't grip well. They will also squeak like crazy. Lube them up, and they will rotate without squeaking, and will not wear.

Rubber or thermoplastic is different. Even this nylon insert is more compliant than urethane. The intent hear is to prevent slipping, which will prevent/reduce wear.

However, from my experience changing my bushings a few months ago (first time), I do not see this nylon insert being a fix. My bushings looked just like the pics on this thread. Like I said in other threads, you notice that the permanent deformation on these bushings is always in the same place...always on the outside ends, facing forward. Why? Because the bar is not straight all the way thru the bushing. It starts it bend while still in the bushing.

If you look at a brand new bushing, newly installed from the outboard end, you will see that (at rest, with the van level), that portion of the bushing is already compressed. It should not be! But these bushings are compressed and being worked 100% of the time, due to either a poor bar design, or a supplier that has never been pressured to hold dimensions properly over the past 12+ years. That's why I'm glad these bushings are so cheap....we'll all be replacing them every few years.

This nylon insert does not address this issue. The insert will simply be pressed into the rubber, and the nylon will eventually crack, in addition to the rubber taking a permanent set.

The answer is to straighten out that bar, such that the bar and the hole are concentric all the way thru.
....or move the bushing/retainer location inboard to where the bar IS straight. Either fix is not as easy as it sounds.

 

[purplepassion]

Had my 03 GCS to the dealer for state inspection and asked "how much to replace the sway bar bushings"? The service mgr. replied, "$30.00". I'm scheduling to have it done because I believe, at that price and my age/physical condition, I don't want to crawl under the van. If the replacements last 5 years, as did the OEs, its worth it to me.

 

[TimWilson]

Had my 03 GCS to the dealer for state inspection and asked "how much to replace the sway bar bushings"? The service mgr. replied, "$30.00". I'm scheduling to have it done because I believe, at that price and my age/physical condition, I don't want to crawl under the van. If the replacements last 5 years, as did the OEs, its worth it to me.

For $30.00 I would have let the dealer replace mine, but I was quoted $ 390.00 for the job three weeks ago!

 

[thebrakeman]

At $390, someone entered the wrong service code(s).

 

[Jeepman]

As far as lube, I think the need is only for true urethane components. These are so hard, that if they were dry, they would wear quickly as they can't grip well. They will also squeak like crazy. Lube them up, and they will rotate without squeaking, and will not wear.

Rubber or thermoplastic is different. Even this nylon insert is more compliant than urethane. The intent hear is to prevent slipping, which will prevent/reduce wear.

However, from my experience changing my bushings a few months ago (first time), I do not see this nylon insert being a fix. My bushings looked just like the pics on this thread. Like I said in other threads, you notice that the permanent deformation on these bushings is always in the same place...always on the outside ends, facing forward. Why? Because the bar is not straight all the way thru the bushing. It starts it bend while still in the bushing.

If you look at a brand new bushing, newly installed from the outboard end, you will see that (at rest, with the van level), that portion of the bushing is already compressed. It should not be! But these bushings are compressed and being worked 100% of the time, due to either a poor bar design, or a supplier that has never been pressured to hold dimensions properly over the past 12+ years. That's why I'm glad these bushings are so cheap....we'll all be replacing them every few years.

This nylon insert does not address this issue. The insert will simply be pressed into the rubber, and the nylon will eventually crack, in addition to the rubber taking a permanent set.

The answer is to straighten out that bar, such that the bar and the hole are concentric all the way thru.
....or move the bushing/retainer location inboard to where the bar IS straight. Either fix is not as easy as it sounds.

Lubrication of bushings: I would only lubricate bushings that had a grease fitting (zerk) and a hole in the bushing for the lubricant to travel through to get to the surfaces requiring lubrication. There are bushings designed that way but they are totally bolted bushings. Otherwise, install as dry as possible to get maximum grip on the bar.

Preventing slipping around the sway bar: I agree / believe that is the intent and installing the bushing in a more neutral location of the sway bar (using ramps instead of jack stands) may help that. Also helps to roughen up any slippery surfaces on the sway bar (remove sheen, smoothness) so the bushing can get maximum grip.

Design: Sway bars on some other vehicles make that same turn into the bushing and even worse on the 2004 Acura TSX I looked at. My sense is that if the bracket had two bolts, instead of a bolt and a tab, the bushing may wear but there would be no metal to metal "clunking" as the bolted surfaces would be tight. My Jeep has two bolts on its sway bar bushing brackets. I'm sure, with the additional suspension travel on that vehicle, the bushings must be worn by now, but no noticeable noise is heard. If one of those bolts was a tab instead, I think I would hear lots of noise. I wonder what the design on the 5th Generation looks like.
As to the "new" nylon insert, I must check with my contacts at the Dealership to see what the intent is there. I believe the nylon sleeve may be soft enough (grip) and strong enough to improve the performance level of the bushing. In future, it may be the replacement component instead of the whole bushing possibly.

 

[purplepassion]

Follow up: Had both sway bar bushings replaced at local dealership. Price was $52.00. Still squeaking. Mechanic leveraged door to rock the chassis and asked if I heard the clunking noise which he said was the swaybar links that needed to be replaced...$90.00. I deferred for now. Can the links cause squeaking?

 

[Hokiefyd]

The answer is to straighten out that bar, such that the bar and the hole are concentric all the way thru.
....or move the bushing/retainer location inboard to where the bar IS straight. Either fix is not as easy as it sounds.

I agree with you that this is the root cause of the problem, and I've postulated the notion before. But I do have some comments.

First, other vehicles share the same general design, that is the bar beginning a curve while still inside the bushing. The other vehicles with which I've worked don't have the same problem of continually wearing the bushing out. I believe the turn-in-the-bushing design is a factor, but not the only factor. I tend to believe that there are other geometrical forces at play here, but I don't know enough to even suggest what they might be.

Secondly, I do think the turn-in-the-bushing design is a bit of a necessary evil. Again, this is my uneducated opinion. On most cars with which I've dealt, the front sway bar shares the same type of design, and I believe it's to help center the bar on the chassis. My Dakota, Corolla, and T&C all have this same type of deal, where the bar begins to turn while still inside the bushing. The other two vehicles don't have the same problem that we have...constantly wearing these things out.

I believe this turn-in-the-bushing design is necessary because the end links are not laterally stable. That is, the end links themselves can rotate in 3 dimensions (twisting about a vertical axis, twisting about a horizontal axis, and everything in between). In other words, if you really loosened the frame bushings (or removed them entirely), the bar could easily slide back and forth to the left and to the right and the end links are mostly powerless to stop it.

Now, take for example the rear bar on these vans. The end links do not use a ball-and-socket joint like the front links do. They use a through bolt and a conventional bushing, like a shock absorber uses. While there can be some side-to-side movement of the bar here (which would be taken up entirely by the bushing, allowing the through bolt to deflect from horizontal), the bar would naturally equilbrate back to "centered". The front won't do that.

So while I agree that the problem lies in how far outboard the frame bushings of the front bar are in relation to the turns of the bar, I think it's designed necessarily so to keep the bar centered on the frame. Which means that I also agree with you that this is just something we have to live with (although I'm still not sure why this tends to be such a problem on these vans and apparently isn't a problem in other vehicles).

 

[Jeepman]

I agree with you that this is the root cause of the problem, and I've postulated the notion before. But I do have some comments.

First, other vehicles share the same general design, that is the bar beginning a curve while still inside the bushing. The other vehicles with which I've worked don't have the same problem of continually wearing the bushing out. I believe the turn-in-the-bushing design is a factor, but not the only factor. I tend to believe that there are other geometrical forces at play here, but I don't know enough to even suggest what they might be.

Secondly, I do think the turn-in-the-bushing design is a bit of a necessary evil. Again, this is my uneducated opinion. On most cars with which I've dealt, the front sway bar shares the same type of design, and I believe it's to help center the bar on the chassis. My Dakota, Corolla, and T&C all have this same type of deal, where the bar begins to turn while still inside the bushing. The other two vehicles don't have the same problem that we have...constantly wearing these things out.

I believe this turn-in-the-bushing design is necessary because the end links are not laterally stable. That is, the end links themselves can rotate in 3 dimensions (twisting about a vertical axis, twisting about a horizontal axis, and everything in between). In other words, if you really loosened the frame bushings (or removed them entirely), the bar could easily slide back and forth to the left and to the right and the end links are mostly powerless to stop it.

Now, take for example the rear bar on these vans. The end links do not use a ball-and-socket joint like the front links do. They use a through bolt and a conventional bushing, like a shock absorber uses. While there can be some side-to-side movement of the bar here (which would be taken up entirely by the bushing, allowing the through bolt to deflect from horizontal), the bar would naturally equilbrate back to "centered". The front won't do that.

So while I agree that the problem lies in how far outboard the frame bushings of the front bar are in relation to the turns of the bar, I think it's designed necessarily so to keep the bar centered on the frame. Which means that I also agree with you that this is just something we have to live with (although I'm still not sure why this tends to be such a problem on these vans and apparently isn't a problem in other vehicles).

Your centering concept sounds good to keep the sway bar in position laterally and, like you say, some other vehicles have a similar design. On a 2004 Acura TSX that I worked on, the bend was even more severe than on my Van.

The one bolt and tab bracket is the problem. With a two bolt bracket, the bracket would never be loose enough, or flexible enough, to "clunk" against the chassis. In that case, the bushing would have to be worn badly to hear any noise and it wouldn't be a clunk sound but more of a loose bushing "thump" sound, which is what it is.

 

[Jeepman]

Follow up: Had both sway bar bushings replaced at local dealership. Price was $52.00. Still squeaking. Mechanic leveraged door to rock the chassis and asked if I heard the clunking noise which he said was the swaybar links that needed to be replaced...$90.00. I deferred for now. Can the links cause squeaking?

They can get dried out (grease is gone) and rust, so yes they can squeak. When they are that bad, you should be able to detect looseness in the joint(s) when you grab hold of it as long as the sway bar is in a neutral position. With somebody rocking the vehicle, you should be able to determine which side is bad initially. Can try spraying lubricant around the individual joints and see what happens. They don't wear out in pairs. One side can outlast the other by thousands of miles. One on my Passengers side was replaced at 151,000 kms, one on Driver's side is original (201,000 kms). The replacement link has grease fittings which get greased with every oil change.

 

[jelly52543]

2003 voyagor

mybe you you can me Ihave a 2003 voyager and we replace battery about 6 months ago and the speed ometer junp the peg and my husband took the battey backout thining it would go back but it did not you can see it moveingwhen we are driving please what can we do
thanks
jelly52543

 

[purplepassion]

Update re: sway bar bushings and end-links.

Had sway bar bushings replaced two weeks ago at a price of $52.00 and today I had the end-links replaced at a price of $122.00....including tax. Local dealer did the work. I told the service writer that I had been tempted (even at my advanced age) to do the work and he said that I should be glad I didn't because they had to use the "hot wrench" to get one of the links out. I must have had a questioning look because he then added, "you know, the cutting torch". Commonly, I don't favor dealerships for work but this is a small-town dealer who knows his existence is based on friendship and ethics. We had a cup of coffee and discussed his 3 cash for clunkers transactions of last week as the work was being done. (eat your hearts out, you big-city folks) He told me that one of his transactions was for a basic Dodge Caliber that after C4C and the $3500 rebate...the bottom line was $10K. He had a pic of the 91 Ford Esploder/clunker being crushed. I advised getting the pic put on a disc in case the VIN number shows up in a drunk driving/wreck litigation some ensuing date. I also told him that Cash For Clunkers is not new.....my EX has been receiving alimony for 25 plus years.

 

[jgbat]

I also told him that Cash For Clunkers is not new.....my EX has been receiving alimony for 25 plus years.

:lol:

My Lord that is the funniest thing I've read/heard all week! TY purplepassion!

:thumb:

:beerchug: