Yaaaaay!!!

Went to Advance auto parts after checking online for a new coil. I didn't want to wait a week for a part, and they had a 25% off online deal, so I got the lifetime warranty coil. Installed it, and the car runs like a charm! I hate to throw parts at a job, but I needed the back plugs, PCV, and I'm sure, the plug wires anyway. Good to have good clean injectors. Just a coincidence that the coil partially failed right after I put fuel injection cleaner in the tank! Thanks to all you guys for all the help!!!:ThumbsUp:

 

This coil pack contains just 3 coils.
the pairing (IIRC) is 2&5, 1&4, 3&6

The spark is generated in once cylinder on the power (compression) stroke and in the other on exhaust (waste).
Basically the coil sits between two plug electrodes and block makes up the rest of the circuit.

Coil pack can fail any number of ways, including an internal short or open. Luckily you have that other 'bad' coil you can connect to see if it changes anything (even if it's also defective).

BTW, coil terminals are 5-1-3 and 2-4-6. Electrical connector is under terminal 1.

 

So, atoman, you're saying with this waste spark system, 2 cylinders are getting spark each time one of them is firing? If that's so, then maybe both of the coil terminals on the right side of the coil are not firing. It really seems like it's running on 4. It is gutless and vibrates a lot. It would seem that #3 and #6 might share spark? When I pulled the plug wire off the coil terminal on #6, there was no spark jumping anywhere. When I did the same to #s 2 & 4, each had a large spark arcing to ground

 

Yes, coil can fail like that.

Pull the #6 wire from the coil pack and see if you can get a spark to jump directly to a grounded booster cable.

 

I had the wife run the engine while I watched. Pulled the #6 plug wire off the coil and it seemed to make no difference, no spark jumping off the coil post. But when I pulled the #2 and #4 plug wires off the coil, 1 at a time. The engine ran worse and a large spark jumped off the coil to ground each time. I also put a wood handle to each front injector and by putting it to my ear was able to hear each injector clicking (triggering). It does not seem #6 is getting spark from the coil, could a coil fail like this?

 

Short of doing a compression test, the pull one plug at a time test might be the best bet. (since it's not setting any codes)

The caveat here is waste spark system, by pulling one plug you're changing conditions on two cylinders... I'm hesitant to suggest pulling injector plugs (not that easy and delicate) but you may have to resort to it.
Maybe take one of the better old plugs, ground it to the block and plug the wire from the test cylinder on that old plug (to even out the variables)

If you find one cylinder that does not change the way it runs, that's your suspect...

If all of them make it run worse, then I'd try a set of OE plugs (double platinum are expensive, but copper is cheap but will only last ~30Kmi)

 

OK, did the key dance, and it kicked out a PO113, then donE.

 

It misses from an idle up to any speed...

 

Not sure if anyone suggested this (thread too long to re-read), but if it's missing at idle, I would try disconnecting plugs and injectors one at a time to see if anything makes NO DIFFERENCE when disconnected. This might offer a clue.

(PO113 is just from disconnected IAT that you mentioned before)

 

Is the miss noticeable when it's idling?

 

4 more bits of info. This is a base model Town and Country (shorty). And I tried the key off and on trick and nothing but the mileage displayed on the odometer. And when I put the anti seize on the plug threads, I used a very small amount, so none could get where it shouldn't be. The code from Autozone was PO138.

 

P0138 Oxygen Sensor Circuit High Voltage (Bank 1, Sensor 2)
Downstream sensor, has nothing directly to do with a miss...

Key dance should work regardless of trim level, it just takes some getting used to the timing (you have to cycle the on/off pretty quickly).

Fuel pressure testing on these vans requires an 'in line adaptor' that goes in the quick connect fitting under the van where pump connects to the fuel line.
FWIW, if it does not starve for fuel when you open up the throttle it's not likely to be critically clogged. Also, IIRC, the spec is 50psi +/-2psi...

BTW, pressure is relieved by pulling the fuel pump relay and running the engine out of fuel... (lest you don't mind a squirt in the face from the pressurized rail)

 

Let me see if I can answer some of your questions. Air filter element looks clean. I checked yesterday the plug wire routing and seated all the coil terminals. I had installed a complete set of 6 rebuilt fuel injectors. I think I remember one of the front spark plugs looking a little damp compared to all the rest, maybe #2 or #4. It's not too hard to pull those 2 and look at them again. Looking at some Youtube videos, it seems a broken wire in the fuel injection system happens sometimes. My cousin has an automotive stethoscope I think I could borrow. (You can hear the pintle in the injector clicking when the engine is idling and the injector is working.) Or maybe it could be the coil? Coil is $25 on Ebay, or $45-50 locally. Plus, this van does not have a Schrader valve on or near the fuel rail, so I don't know how you would monitor fuel pressure. I had to remove an injector over a pan to relieve fuel pressure. Another thing I did while it was apart was to clean the throttle body backside.

 

Hey slapshot,
You could do my test without risking any shock too...

If you just disconnect one ignition wire at the coil and start the van, note how it runs, and shut it back off.
By process of elimination, after six tries you are bound to know what cylinder (s) are not making a difference when disconnected.

Then it is all "Suck, Bang, Blow"
Cheers!

 

..."Suck, Bang, Blow"

You forgot to squeeze.

 

Time to go back to the basics:

Battery well charged?
Compression test?
Fuel pressure?
Coil pack?
Wires/plugs?
Wires properly routed?
Clogged air filter?
Cam/crank sensor?
Injector stuck open or closed? faulty connection?
Clogged exhaust system?
Engine block well grounded?
MAP sensor or connection?

All sensor and coil pack connections clean?


Have you had it scanned to read live data display? Fuel trim, spark timing, etc.

 

Ok, so there is a miss, and we can assume it is no longer a PCV valve, a spark plug, ignition wire, or injector.

Lets try to deduce what cylinder it is, and then prove that it is in fact that cylinder. Then we can perform some tests, swap some things (one thing at a time) around, and determine the discrepancy.

Do you remember pulling a spark plug (or more) and finding it all wet and greasy looking?

Do the 3.3L engines use the same ignition coil as the 3.8? Did you get the ignition wires on the right posts of the coil? They are numbered on my 3.8 coil and the rear three are not aligned like the front three.

Review diagram.
http://i.fixya.net/uploads/images/4dfcfcf.jpg

I have a pair of plastic plier like grippers for pulling high voltage ignition wires. You could loosen the ignition wires at the coil (pushed on but not clicked on) and while the engine is running pull them individually, and then put them back on, until you find one that does not make a difference. That one would be the one that is not firing (missing). You can do it without plastic pliers but you risk getting shocked...

https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-51600-Spark-Plug-Puller/dp/B000I14RXM

Actually there is a way to use bare hands on steel pliers without insulation or gloves... You have to fashion a ground wire for your pliers to the chassis of the vehicle. This way any spark that might occur will path through that wire instead of you. AND, dont stand in a puddle or have your other hand touching anything on the vehicle.
(I used this technique to wire a 9000 volt neon sign when I could not turn off the power and had to complete the job before driving a hundred miles back to the shop.) I didn't even feel a tickle, but I sure did smell some ozone.

If you are unsure how electricity likes to take the path of least resistance or do not understand how the ground wire will protect you, then do not attempt this, and it is probably prudent to have an observer that can shut off the vehicle BEFORE trying CPR.... Just saying

 

Just guessing here, but how about injector cleaner clogged fuel pump strainer?

 

That too, I imagine if you could test the fuel pressure at the fuel rail, i believe it should be about 45 PSI (3 bar)

Levy, Is that fuel strainer in the fuel tank? A sock that is part of the fuel pump fuel level sending assembly?

 

The miss is steady from idle all up the RPM range. 1 or 2 cylinders are not doing their thing.

 

does the "miss" occur at idle, pushing down accelerator, or while running down the road at various speeds?
have you checked this wire?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF99kcd2qtY

i'm assuming your battery is running at a full charge, due to intermittent battery power the engine could miss.

This video explains solution for guy having stalling problems and what he finally came up with. you issue is a miss, i don't know if that means "sputtering like this guy had in the video. Just trying to give you direction. I it very bad not having a running vehicle and trying things and nothing working. My heart goes out to you and my prayers and what ever I can think of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBIUIna2vu0

I live in south florida if you live near we can work on it together. i'm not a mechanic just a troubleshooter.

 

Any thoughts???

 

Any chance a smudge of anti-seize could have contaminated insulator on one of the (rear - hard to see) plugs?

Not sure what 'miss' it shows, do the key dance and post the code: Key -> insert (Lock) -> Off->ON(run)->Off->On->Off->On, look at odometer readout and write down P codes until 'donE' is displayed.

If you want to throw a few more bucks at it, get a set of champion copper plugs and put them in - don't use any anti-seize.

The 'proper' testing would be:
Compression, fuel pressure, spark plugs - in that order.

Edit: particularly compression in the cylinder which had the plug with half the anode missing...

 

Well, long story short, after spending many hours and over $150 on her, when I fired her up, she ran exactly like she did before I did a thing. It's now 9F outside and I need to think about my next move. I had Autozone put the OBD2 sensor on it, and showed I forgot to plug in the IATS, which I immediately corrected (easy), and shows a "miss". Obviously something else happened unrelated to the fuel injection cleaner being added. AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

 

Congrats on that catch of the day, saved you from pulling the cover.

 

like to see a pic of you sitting on the engine scuzziOne.

 

Yesterday I spent working on extracting the PCV valve. I sprayed it with some Silikroil, and let it sit for a while. Then I set my heat gun to where it was blowing on the tube that holds the PCV and tried to leverage it up with a variety of pliers. As I was destroying the tube on top of the valve, I finally got my Vicegrips out, and added some more Silikroil, and after a while it popped out. But when it did, it left 1/2 the rubber collar down inside the tube. I pried at it with a small screwdriver, and succeeded in having the collar drop down the tube into the top of the rocker arm cover. AAAARRRRGGGGHHH! Now what? Well, I strolled down to the pole barn (for about the thousandth time) and got my grabber, a tool that looks like a speedometer cable with a push button (spring loaded) in one end, and grabber claws on the other end that open up when you push the button. I stuck it down the hole and fished around, and on the first try, I grabbed the piece and pulled it right up out of there! I was fortunate! The new PCV valve just pushed right in, no problem. Then, later on, the fuel injectors arrived, and I installed them, first squirting some Silikroil down each injector hole, and putting some on each upper O ring. The one fun part is tightening the 10MM nut on the bottom of the power steering reservoir. It would help if I had 3 hands for this job as I had to hold the mirror to see the nut, then push the socket back over the nut. I finally got that done. Then I remembered I had snapped a vacuum line that goes to the right end of the upper intake manifold, so I have to get another one today. Also when I went to reinstall the metal tube for the EGR valve to the upper intake manifold I discovered the parts store had given me the wrong gaskets. I have to take them back and see if I can get the right ones, also. I did get most of the project back together, I just have to install the throttle cables, EGR tube, and the vacuum line, positive battery cable, and I'm good to go. I'm glad the injectors came yesterday as it's getting really cold today.

 

Try silicon spray. might give you the slippery lubricity and it is safe on rubber.

I had more typed out but again, I deleted my post by pushing the too convenient "Reply to Thread" button instead of the post quick reply.... dumkof

 

PCV valve is a PITA. Seems like most folks use a vise grip and some means of leveraging it upward out of the valve cover. I personally removed the valve cover (since I was doing valve cover gaskets as well), clamped onto the PCV valve nipple with a vise grip, and then pulled like crazy while sort of standing on the valve cover with the front of both feet (one foot one each side of the valve). With much effort, it popped out... somewhat violently. If you go the vise grip route, just be careful as the nipple on my valve nearly tore off of the PCV valve body in the process... maybe I clamped too low on the nipple?

 

Today I picked up he parts that came in, the 3 new Autolite Iridium spark plugs, the gaskets for the upper intake manifold, and a PCV valve. I put anti seize on the plugs and installed them, along with the 3 remaining plug wires. I swabbed dielectric grease inside the plug boots, and the coil boots before attaching them. Now I'm battling the PCV valve. It doesen't want to come out. I watched a couple of Youtube videos, but no one had an effective way to remove it. It seems the rubber it seats into hardens up, and it's hard to get enough leverage to pull it up and out. I'm thinking of heating the area up with my heat gun, and see how that works. It is pretty cold now, but it's supposed to be around 40F tomorrow.

 

It's a real pain in the neck to get out for sure. I put a small break in the part of my valve cover that the PCV valve goes into when I was taking my PCV valve out a couple years ago. I was using vice grips and a wood block for leverage. Not sure I'd recommend the same for you because my work resulted in broken plastic... Fortunately, it wasn't bad enough to cause the new PCV valve any trouble when seating it. The rubber O-ring on the old PCV valve was petrified solid, though, which is what made it so difficult to remove. You need lots of leverage, but at the same time a) you can't really press against a plastic valve cover too much and b) it's difficult to grab the old PCV valve tightly enough.

The heat sounds like an interesting idea that may work - I would also wonder if there is something out there that soaks in like penetrating oil but makes rubber parts (like O-rings) softer? If there was something like that, I would spray it around the PCV valve, turn/twist the PCV valve in its socket a little, and let it "soak" before hitting it with the heat and leverage.